- Is a two-finger C-natural on D flutes important? I like it on high and low whistles, and know it can be lipped in on a flute, but should I expect it on flutes without having to alter embouchure from the rest of the scale? It would seem to make things easier, but I played a keyless recently which required either rolling the flute slightly or putting down more fingers to get a C-nat. in tune.
Brian - I think flutes are effected by out of tune C naturals (with two fingers) more than many whistles, which is why so many flute players use the C natural key if they have one. I’ve played some really, really fine flutes and have found that I needed to do a little bit of tinkering with my embouchure and how hard I blow in order to get the C natural in tune. Just play around with it for a while and it should become natural.
Best,
Chris
“Some whistles just plain suck.” ~ M. Gandhi
[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-11-18 15:33 ]
Thanks,Chris
-its only a concern because I have a deeply instilled two-finger habit.
-Brian O.
With the decent-makes modern flutes, the two-fingered Cnat should work pretty consistantly. Older antique flutes don’t work well with this fingering, as they weren’t made to sound good with “whistle” fingerings. Also, try 0x0xxx when you need to really hold a Cnat (or play D immediately after), which will play a bit sharper and clearer than the two-fingered way (works well on some whistles, too). It doesn’t take long to get in that habit, and you end up using them alternately depending on the tune.
I disagree that most with keyed flutes will use the C nat. key – that’s the one key I never use when using a keyed flute. Too ingrained, perhaps, to use the whistle fingerings, but also prefer not to use keys if I don’t absolutely have to, and I think you’ll find that that’s true for most trad players, even with fully keyed flutes.
But I could be wrong, and it’s just me. 
On flutes, the OxxOOO Cnat fingering tends to produce a slightly “fuzzy” note. Better options include OxOxxO and OxOxxx.
[ This Message was edited by: Jens_Hoppe on 2002-11-19 04:09 ]
On some flutes, OXOOOO may also work… a variant on the 2-finger method.
Deirdre
C nat. has to be one of the most variably fingered notes!
One of my flutes does best with: OXXXXO
Just another option.
The C natural does vary considerably from flute to flute. If oxx ooo is too sharp, I use:
oxx oxx
I like the veiled quality of the cross-fingered C natural more than the clear open tone that comes from using the long C key. I use the C key mainly for descending triplets (it’s fun to start The Cup of Tea with a C-B-A triplet, using a quick flick of the long C key) and I almost always use it for the second-octave C natural. In most other cases I use the cross fingering.
One benefit of cross-fingering is that you can achieve a nice uilleann piping effect in which the C starts out a little flat and then rises to pitch. For that I usually start with the oxx oxx fingering and then lift the two fingers on my right hand to raise the pitch (sometimes lifting my left fingers a bit off the holes as well, reaching toward C-sharp), while simultaneously changing the blowing angle. The resulting effect is very similar to the rising C that is typically used with great effect on the pipes. It keeps the note alive and wandering, and certain tunes (especially piping jigs) seem to want that effect.
The variations in C natural tuning and fingering are a result of how different flute makers have addressed the limitations of the basic keyless flute design. It is very difficult, and maybe impossible, to make a keyless flute where the C sharp and the C natural are both in tune and with good tone.
The separation in going from oooooo to oxxooo is less than a semitone on most flutes, so the maker has to make a trade-off of either an in-tune C nat with a flat C#, or an in-tune C# and a sharp C nat. Most makers of flutes for Irish music seem to split the difference but with more emphasis on the C natural tuning. In other words, you will end up with a flute where the C# is somewhat flat, and the C nat is very slightly sharp when fingered oxxooo. The tuning should come out close enough that when the note is emphasised (maybe in a slow air) it can be brought in to tune by alternative fingerings or by embouchure control.
Other than adding a C natural key, the only solutions I know of are to make the holes smaller, which will result in loss of tone and volume, or to add a a C natural hole. Terry McGee has been advocating the C natural hole, which is positioned so that it is closed by the left thumb, and only opened for the C nat note. I think that Skip Healy has also built instruments with that feature. It sounds like a good approach, though I have not yet given it a try.
Dave Copley
Loveland, Ohio
Along with everything else said, if the cross-fingering you are used to on whistle doesn’t bother you, tonally, then it really shouldn’t bother you on the flute. As Dave said, the flute’s Cnat. is a compromise with the C#, a better compromise in most cases than with the average whistle, and the imperfect pitches possible with these multiple fingerings simply add a human quality to the tune that the key doesn’t allow. Not to mention that in many cases, the key slows down your playing and, at a decent clip, none of these cross-fingered semi-tones will appear out of tune in any case.
On 2002-11-19 10:33, Gordon wrote:
Along with everything else said, if the cross-fingering you are used to on whistle doesn’t bother you, tonally, then it really shouldn’t bother you on the flute.
I’ve got to disagree with Gordon here: Most cylinder bore whistles I’ve played have an pretty well in-tune C# as well as a very respectable oxxoo or oxxxoo Cnat. Cone bore flutes, for whatever reasons, are much more wacky up there - meaning more of a compromise seems necessary, leading to on or the other note being off.
Compare and Olwell D flute with an Overton Low D: The Olwell is a bit flat on the C# and way sharp on the oxxooo cross fingered Cnat, not at all unusual for a conical bore flute. The Cylindrical Overton by comparison has both of these notes nearly perfect, when using the identical fingering mentioned above.
Loren
BTW, oxxxox seems to work best for me on my Olwell, however that’s still sharp, and I’m starting to get the idea that I really should practice adjusting intonation via rolling the headjoint in and out a bit more.
Loren
Hi
Just wondering if anyone would clarify what ‘cross fingering’ means. Im new to playing the flute, obviously!
Another thing to keep in mind is that the tuning of C sharp, C natural, and to some extent B, are very dependent on the position of the headjoint cork, and on the extension of the tuning slide. Also, the pitch of these notes will tend to shift more than the other notes as the flute warms up and as your embouchure settles in when you start a playing session.
Dave Copley
Loveland, Ohio
On 2002-11-19 13:04, Loren wrote:
On 2002-11-19 10:33, Gordon wrote:
Along with everything else said, if the cross-fingering you are used to on whistle doesn’t bother you, tonally, then it really shouldn’t bother you on the flute.I’ve got to disagree with Gordon here: Most cylinder bore whistles I’ve played have an pretty well in-tune C# as well as a very respectable oxxoo or oxxxoo Cnat. Cone bore flutes, for whatever reasons, are much more wacky up there - meaning more of a compromise seems necessary, leading to on or the other note being off.
Compare and Olwell D flute with an Overton Low D: The Olwell is a bit flat on the C# and way sharp on the oxxooo cross fingered Cnat, not at all unusual for a conical bore flute. The Cylindrical Overton by comparison has both of these notes nearly perfect, when using the identical fingering mentioned above.
Loren
Well, disagreements are fine, and I’m sure whistles and flutes all vary a bit from individual instrument to various makers. I can’t speak for Olwells or Overtons, but I find the pitches chancey on most whistles (cheap one’s are all I play) and pretty fair-to-right-on on my Hamilton keyless. Completely off on my antique German, but then, what did I expect.
Cylindrical whistles/fifes/flutes are pretty good on the bottom octave, including the Cnat/C#. But the pitch must be steady all the way at least thru to the 2nd, if not 3rd, octave, and then, all bets are off. My point to Brian was that the variance is not wildly different than on a whistle, and – in the case of a flute – can be altered a bit by embouchure attack, lipping, etc.
Yeah, the point I’m making is just that having played nearly 200 whistles most of them not cheapies, and few flutes (Healy, Hoza, Hamilton, Olwell, Grinter, Seery, M&E, Copley, Lambe, and one or two more I’m forgetting), I’ve found that oxxooo while working generally quite well on whistles, does not work well on most of the conical bore wooden flutes - unless you lip/roll etc.
I took the original poster’s question to be along the lines of “Okay oxxooo works fine on whistles, but not on my flute, is this common?” To which my answer would be, “yes, it’s common to need more fingers down somewhere on most wooden D flutes than on cylinder whistles…either that or you have to roll the headjoint or do some lip gymnastics.” Not that I’m saying any one of these approaches is right/wrong or better/worse. Just that it’s not uncommon for many wooden flutes to be quite sharp even with oxxooo if all you do is slap the fingers down and nothing more.
Loren
[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2002-11-20 05:58 ]
-Thank you one & all for the plethora of informed replies. All other things equal, I
decided on a well tuned flute I find easy to play
well, and one with a wide range of timbre
and volume available,-a big blackwood Rudall style instrument, sans slide but with superb tonal options.
More later-I gotta go play!
Sparkle, cross fingering is a matter
of not playing the C nat by half-holing
but by fully closing some holes,
as in oxxooo.
Other ‘half-hole’ notes can be
cross fingered, too.
As a newbie to the flute, I’m having
a hard time with the cross fingered
c natural, not on account of intonation,
but because my fingers are flopping
around. Does this get better?
How do you do it at speed?
I’m experimenting with half-holing
the C natural by pivoting my index
finger–this has promise, I think.
Is this used widely on flute? Best
Jim thanks for your reply. Unfortunately like you I am new to the flute so can’t really offer much advice. However, a friend of mine suffered ‘floppy fingers’ when starting out and found that lots and lots of practice is needed to tighten up the fingering and increase speed. No doubt some one else here will sort you out.
cheers
Jim, I think half-holing the Cnat is fine for certain moments in certain tunes, but it’s very hard to do that at speed with any accuracy, and it’s a weak sound at that to hold for any duration.
Using cross fingerings are simply a matter of practice, no harder than any other fingering after a while, and certainly no harder than using conical keys.
I alternate several possible Cnat fingerings (including the occasional half-hole you suggest)without thinking about which to use at what time. It happens fairly naturally after a bit, and your fingers seem to go to the best one without much thought. Practice one of the cross-fingered Cnats, either 0xx000 or 0x0xxx, going from there to say, B, and back again. Then do the same going from that to D and back again, etc. Not that hard after a few times.