I’m a crass beginner. I’m using Bill Ochs The Clarke’s Tin Whistle to learn. In fingering a C natural, one option is to leave the top hole open and close the next two holes. What I’m wondering is it acceptable to ALSO close thge BOTTOM hole, if that is convenient from having closed that hole as a balance finger/hole for G, A and B? The sound appears to be the same (that is, C natural with the top hole open or closed), but I’ve also been learning fiddle for the past year, and I know how importabnt it is to NOT develop bad habits early on. If it is comfortable to continue closing the top hole when playing C natural, is that a good idea?
There are numerous possible fingerings for C natural (including, but not limited to, OXXOOO, OXXXOO, OXXXOX, and OXOXXX) dependent mainly on tuning, so the best habit is probably to use the most appropriate to the whistle when this varies substantially from instrument to instrument. So I’d suggest letting your ears judge and not being afraid to leave R3 down if the note’s passing that test (might want to watch it on those Gs, though).
I found myself doing the same thing when I started. I found that over time, I was using it intermittently and without really thinking about it. My brain knew the option was there if I needed it, and my ears were sensitive enough to warn me off it if I was pulling the note out of tune.
I’m pretty sure this was discussed here before without any real consensus on what’s “correct.” But my memory is shot most of the time, so I reserve the right to be completely wrong.
(half hole)
DOO OOO and OX? ???
All these answers are correct but I’ll add my two cents. Do what makes the note work. However as Paul said and Denny clarified a little, you will want (need) to learn to half-hole eventually if you want to become proficient at playing. Different fingering combinations are necessary to achieve good notes and good transitions and some whistles, having nothing to do with quality, will work better with different combinations. One good example is Sindt whistles. Among the finest made, you will only be able to achieve a good C nat by half holing. It will take practice to become precise at this. Learn all the different fingerings though. They will all be usable as Peter stated.
ecohawk
Small note of dissent (and old hobby horse rant) here - I never half hole C naturals (and don’t wish to own a Sindt) and don’t wish/need to. Also, VERY few whistles cross finger best with oxx ooo - do try the alternatives Peter suggested and see which is most in tune/strongest on your particular whistle. The majority of cylindrical whistles (and many conoid ones too), including IME all the basic ones like Generation downright need oxxxox - which is very easy for shifting to/from D and in fast transitions using C naturals and Es, you can leave the bottom finger (R3) off without noticeable harm to facilitate the fingering. It is the default fingering from which I start when exploring a new-to-me whistle. Very, very few whistles turn out IME to have oxx ooo as their best option, notwithstanding it is given/taught as the default, orthodox Irish fingering in the majority of books and by most teachers, and many whistle makers claim (usually demonstrably erroneously) to have optimised their design for it.
Never, ever, ever, Jem? While I don’t usually, I do when sliding from a B and defy you to get exactly the same effect in both octaves with cross-fingering! But I’m afraid I don’t covet Sindts either, or at least wouldn’t get one without trying to see if it’s really the only way…
Also, > VERY > few whistles cross finger best with oxx ooo
Perhaps, but I still tend to gravitate to ones where it’s at least usable!
do try the alternatives Peter suggested and see which is most in tune/strongest on your particular whistle.
Might also be worth testing OXXOXX, OXXOXO and OXXOOX (with the last, I think, being what you were originally asking about)?
No. Never. Not that I can think of.
I very occasionally half-hole an F natural (no choice on D whistle if one is needed) and even less often a G# (more often cross-finger that), but nothing else. I respect those who choose to put in the work to perfect using a lot of half-holing, but I prefer to put my efforts into getting the cross-fingerings off pat.
I hope I’m not opening a can of worms here but I feel that the thumbhole C nat. should at least be mentioned. If positioned correctly it’s perfectly in tune, has a strong clear tone, and makes many passages faster and easier to play. Now I’m heading for cover.
I am with Peter in that I half hole C naturals when sliding up from a B, which seems to be a natural (sorry) way to emphasise a B in airs. Otherwise I use whatever fingering works best. oxxxxoo works best for the second C natural on my Copeland, and on the Onyx I had. In fact oxxxxo seemed to work pretty well in both octaves on the Onyx, it also works well for the Dixon tapered low D second octave. I get bored trying to learn to half hole as a discrete note - it always wobbles a little. Colin Goldie recomended using sxoooo, where s = shade the hole. ‘That way’ he said ‘you have one way to do C natural that works on every whistle’. I never managed this myself, but then I am still learning.
Likewise I do not covet a Sindt - he does not make a low D! Though if he did I might.
Well, since that’s the only way to do it… if I needed/wanted that particular effect, obviously I’d do it - but I cannot think of any context where I do or ever have. Just possibly a slide from B off to C#, yes, but I probably simply wouldn’t do a semitone slide from B to C nat, 'cos I’d go straight to the cross-fingered C nat automatically. Not at all saying there’s anything wrong with doing it. I just don’t do it. Is that a self-imposed limitation? Sure. Do I care? Not much. It’d be easy enough to do if I specifically really wanted wanted that slide. But I absolutely definitely never, ever, half hole C nat as a discrete note, nor would I choose to do so, nor practice to perfect doing it well. The cross-fingering (whichever works best on the instrument in hand and in musical context) is, IMO, so much easier, more reliable, more versatile.
I meant to add after that bit that you quoted “but otherwise I agree with you both”.
I find it hard to get a distinct sound with ‘edges’ from a half-holed note but always attributed that to my incompetence. Perhaps I should blame my intransigence instead.
The trouble with learning cross fingerings is that they vary so much from whistle to whistle. Half holing always works. (That’s not to say that I don’t use cross fingerings also).
Good point, but for me that poses little problem as I am down to three whistles that I play regularly, and know very few tunes which require ‘notes not in the key’ (is there a term for them? Accidentals?). I can see that half-holing is a good solution when swapping between whistles with different characteristics.
Rats! Posted this and then lost it! Will try to re-create, Thanks for settiung me straight about C natural fingering. I had no idea… Yes, Peter, upon listening to G more carefully with the lowest hole closed, I hear the difference. And yes, it was 0XX00(X) that I was initially asking about. Sorry if both these posts end up showing up. I sometimes despise this little Newbook I’m forced to work on when travelling, but a whistle sure travels better than a fiddle!
I like that there’s been quite a lot of healthy exchange here on how each of us accommodates our own idiosyncrasies. My playing experience doesn’t begin to compare with someone like Jem but as I progress along this journey I find that growth is only possible through experimentation.
I hesitated to learn half-holing from the stubborn point of view that a good whistle ought to accommodate a solid cross finger option. But another growth opportunity for me came when I realized that some tunes/songs simply sound better to me on certain whistles. Maybe that won’t seem so when I arrive at a final “voice” that is my own. I can’t imagine playing/practicing without my Sindt D (brass head/silver body) though. I feel the same about my Busman, Copeland, Jerry’s mellow dog/bluebird, Goldie, Parks, Schultz and Dion as well. They each have their own personality and all want a different fingering for solid C Nat.
Though I was just trying some scales using the aforementioned Goldie idea of leaking L1 while covering L2 and found that it works within 10 cents on all the above. I’ll keep trying it on tunes and when practicing transitions to see if it really is a universal answer.
Thanks all,
ecohawk
ya! den, all ya need is ta learn F nat & Bb!!
Learn to half hole the C!
It is a note that is common in tunes (much more so than Bb or Fnat or G# - though the latter is more so and is good to learn it is the other half hole I use commonly - if I need Bb or F I usually play a different whistle!)
Until you learn how to do it you will not know what you are missing - and since it is used by many excellent players it behoves you to at least try it.
It works on all whistles - cross fingered fingerings vary for good reasons, it is not possible to make a particular cross fingering work with compromising other behaviors so the whistle maker has to make choices. *
The technique is important and is not the same for all ‘half holes’ - as it turns out (at least for me) C is easier than the others, or maybe I just have not mastered the others because I don’t play them as much.
The half hole C: If you use a slightly bent top finger on the top hole then if you straighten it slightly (your finger that is) the pad of your finger will partially reveal the hole, the more you straighten it the more the hole is opened and the sharper the C.
Now practice it regularly and after a week, or a month, or a year or two it will seem natural and easy and you’ll wonder why you didn’t learn it earlier. You don’t have to use it but it opens more possibilities. I use it most of the time but still use cross fingerings when that works better - choices are often good!
- one of the driving forces for me making my own whistles was the almost unusable (IMHO) cross fingered C of the Generation D whistle. However as I chased an in tune C I discovered other features that were more important to me and so started to optimize for those instead, ironically as I followed this other path my present whistles have a good cross fingered C with oxx ooo or oxx xoo depending the context and desired C tuning.