C nat fingering

[Steve_Bliven]

I was initially taught that the C nat on my keyless flute should be fingered OXO XXX and this has generally worked on the flutes I’ve played for any length of time. Doesn’t always provide a perfect tuning but I’ve been able to adjust and bring it up or down as necessary.

Recently I’ve been playing a flute that demands a OXX XOO fingering. This comes in nicely in tune and I can’t seem to bring the fingering I had been using into tune.

Which leads to the question—what fingering do others use for C nat ? And are you able to switch instruments and use the same fingering or do you have to adapt ?

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

[Etruscan]

OXO XXO

This is the best fingering for me (just a bit sharp, but with an excellent tone), at least with my former flute (a Grinter, old model) and also with the new one (a Wilkes, Rudall style).

[Viking_of_Kiev]

@Etruscan

OXO XXO

This is the best fingering for me (just a bit sharp, but with an excellent tone), at least with my former flute (a Grinter, old model) and also with the new one (a Wilkes, Rudall style).

Second that. OXO XXO is as strong as the rest of notes but is a bit sharp which is cured by lipping in. Though, I am more used to OXXOXX which I use in faster tunes.

[chas]

first octave

OXX OOO on most

OXO XXX on a couple

OXO OOO on one

Second octave

OXO XXX on most

OXO XXO on a couple

[Etruscan]

OXO OOO is good for fast passages; OXX OOO results too weak and dull on my flutes… Also, the same note played using the Cnat key is obviously in tune, but I don’t like its tone… that’s a matter of personal taste I guess

[monkeymonk]

@Etruscan

OXO OOO is good for fast passages; OXX OOO results too weak and dull on my flutes… Also, the same note played using the Cnat key is obviously in tune, but I don’t like its tone… that’s a matter of personal taste I guess

Definitely a matter of personal taste. I like the sound of OXX OOO but against a tuner its sharp and OXX XOO is closer to home. I still think the C natural on my keyed flute sounds strange because i’m so used to the cross fingered version.

[Steve_Bliven]

So do you folks with multiple flutes with varying fingerings for C nat find it easy to adapt to the “other” fingering when you switch instruments?

This newer flute that I’m trying just doesn’t want anything other than OXX XOO for either intonation or quality of sound. I’m a bit concerned about being able to switch fingerings as I switch flutes.

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

[jemtheflute]

@Steve Bliven

So do you folks with multiple flutes with varying fingerings for C nat find it easy to adapt to the “other” fingering when you switch instruments?

Fairly. Like everything else, it comes with practice. I have always played both flute & whistle and used different C nat fingerings on them, as well as using the key on the flute, and different 2nd 8ve fingerings on each as well… Sometimes if playing a tune one is especially familiar with on just one instrument it can be tricky to change to an instrument which demands a different fingering, but it shouldn’t take long to deal with.

My default fingering for 1st 8ve and the best on most (of my own & generally) flutes is indeed oxo xxx - best with Eb key open on most, but that’s often not practicable. I also use the keyed C a lot; it indubitably has the best tone and intonation. I do use oxo xxo in E minor arpeggios and similar contexts, but it is usually noticeably sharp and also weaker toned. I am well known here for generally objecting to oxx ooo as a mostly duff fingering, though if it is demonstrably the best available I will & do use it, e.g. on my RC & Co. Ebonite piccolo. I am also very used to oxx xox on whistles. I haven’t met many flutes where oxx xoo is the best or even very good, and I’m not keen on it anyway as that is the default 2nd 8ve C# fingering! However, if it proves to be the best available, I’ll use it (I do so at least some of the time on my Swayne low D whistle). oxo ooo is almost invariably unusably sharp, though I have recently met one rather unusual flute (a low Bb, so the whole set of chosen design compromises is different!) on which it is the best after the keyed fingering and a pretty good best at that.

The default 2nd 8ve fingering on keyed flute is xox xx,o, (an F and the Eb keys open). On most flutes that is better than the keyed note, which is often bad, though I have met some flutes on which it is the best. On both flutes and whistles one can also experiment among oxo ooo, oxo xxo, oxo xxx, oxx xxo and even xox xox to find the best on the toot-of-the-moment.

[Jonas_T_Larsson]

On my Walt Sweet Shannon oxx xox is the most in tune Cnat, sometimes I exchange it with oxx oxx for convenience. Most everything else is sharp. On whistles I use mostly oxx ooo (sometimes oxx oxx) which works quite OK for me. Slight adaptation required every time, but nothing major.

[Steve_Bliven]

Thanks for all the responses. Sounds like one can learn to adjust to different fingerings on different flutes fairly easily. I got around that with the whistle by learning to half-hole the C nat, but this doesn’t seem to work at all well on the flute.

@Jonas T Larsson

On my Walt Sweet Shannon oxx xox is the most in tune Cnat, sometimes I exchange it with oxx oxx for convenience. Most everything else is sharp.

Interesting as it’s on the Shannon that I’m finding the “different” C nat. Walt recommends OXX XOO on his fingering chart (button at bottom of page). When I play I find this just a bit flat of OXX OXX. OXX XOX sounds a bit muffled to me. Different techniques, lips, or ways of hearing perhaps.

Again, appreciate the input from all.

Best wishes.

Steve

[monkeymonk]

@Steve Bliven

Thanks for all the responses. Sounds like one can learn to adjust to different fingerings on different flutes fairly easily. I got around that with the whistle by learning to half-hole the C nat, but this doesn’t seem to work at all well on the flute.

@Jonas T Larsson

On my Walt Sweet Shannon oxx xox is the most in tune Cnat, sometimes I exchange it with oxx oxx for convenience. Most everything else is sharp.

Interesting as it’s on the Shannon that I’m finding the “different” C nat. Walt recommends OXX XOO on his fingering chart (button at bottom of page). When I play I find this just a bit flat of OXX OXX. OXX XOX sounds a bit muffled to me. Different techniques, lips, or ways of hearing perhaps.

http://shop.irishflutestore.com/WD-Sweet-Shannon-Model-Flute-w-C-Nat-thumbhole-ShannonEvans.htm

I just thought that was a funny coincidence …

Anyhow, i suppose the thumb hole would have to be custom made as most people’s RH thumb position tends to vary a little.

[ChrisCracknell]

There is pretty much a “right” place for the thumbhole - acoustically it is in the same place along the length of the tube as the keyed hole would be and radially, it is about 120 degrees round the flute from the front holes on the side that faces toward the player. If you look at a Boehm flute then that is about where you will find it too.

[jim_stone]

Right. The thumb goes where it would go on a classical flute grip. It’s comfortable
and should work fine.

If you order from a maker a flute with a thumb hole, or have one put in a flute you own already,
you can get the heart joint sent you and you can mark with a bit of glued paper the place in that
area where your thumb goes comfortably. Then send it back.

IMO, thumb holes are much more agile than c natural keys, and of course a lot cheaper.

[Jonas_T_Larsson]

@Steve Bliven

Interesting as it’s on the Shannon that I’m finding the “different” C nat. Walt recommends OXX XOO on his fingering chart (button at bottom of page). When I play I find this just a bit flat of OXX OXX. OXX XOX sounds a bit muffled to me. Different techniques, lips, or ways of hearing perhaps.

Yes a bit too muffled, maybe I should see if I can get the oxx xoo in tune…

[Steve_Bliven]

@ChrisCracknell

There is pretty much a “right” place for the thumbhole - acoustically it is in the same place along the length of the tube as the keyed hole would be and radially, it is about 120 degrees round the flute from the front holes on the side that faces toward the player. If you look at a Boehm flute then that is about where you will find it too.

I’ve never tried to play a flute (or even a whistle) with a C nat thumb hole. While that is open, what are the other fingers doing? Is “everything off”—all six fingers and the thumb?

Best wishes.

Steve

[monkeymonk]

@Steve Bliven

I’ve never tried to play a flute (or even a whistle) with a C nat thumb hole. While that is open, what are the other fingers doing? Is “everything off”—all six fingers and the thumb?

The right hand index finger would stay on it’s hole I imagine in much the same way you would grip at the edge of a cliff
I’m sure it would get easier with practice.

I’m inspired to try and change from OXX OOO to OXX XOO which i never was before reading this thread so thank you (i think).

[woodfluter]

Certainly an interesting topic, and the answers thus far are informative and just a bit baffling to me.

On vintage flutes I’ve tried, oxo xxx works quite well for the second octave C. (I mean the C above middle.)
I have several keyless flutes by modern makers, plus two keyed flutes (Olwell “Pratten” and McGee “Rudall Perfected”).
On every one of these, oxo xxx is around 25 cents sharp sans adjustments. I can’t work well with that.
That fingering is almost always fine on the third octave C. But the keyed C is easier for me there ~80% of the time.

On the Olwell, oxx ooo comes out surprisingly strong.
Yes Jem, I know what you mean and this is usually more muffled but he’s made it work well here.
It is also nearly in tune, just a tad sharp of the tuner meaning about right in many contexts.
But oxo xxx is unsuable to me, and oxx xox is disturbingly flat, and only a bit better in tone.

On the McGee, oxx xox is dead on and quite strong. Only slightly more muffled than the keyed C.
However, oxx ooo is quite noticably weaker than on the Olwell. And oxo xxx is also unsuable.
(By the way, the oxx xox and oxx xoo is pretty much the same flutewise. Former makes easier transitions mostly.)

On both Olwell & McGee, the keyed C is the strongest and most in tune.

Not to belabor the obvious, but quick transitional notes are a different matter.
We seem to be talking about sustained and exposed notes here.

Interestingly, the Olwell and McGee require different (keyless) fingerings to get the C# in tune in the second and third octaves. Probably because of the compromises needed for different approaches to the C nat.
So in short, yes (groan) you have to do some things differently on different flutes.

About thumbholes…a tangential subject…
I’ve now put these into about six keyless flutes (or flute sections), maybe four Olwell bamboos.
Also over a dozen whistles including my Burkes and Copelands, a Goldie and an Overton.
I was a doubter initially and slid into conviction. I can’t see any downside and lots of plusses.
If you play a Boehm, there’s no learning curve - same fingering only no key, just a hole.
One side benefit is the ease of bringing C# into tune on both registers with the same fingering.

[ChrisCracknell]

With the thumb hole,on a RH flute, the LEFT index finger stays down when playing CNat.

The only downside of the thumbhole is that, once you are used to it, playing other people’s flutes becomes a bit trickier…

[jim_stone]

Also buying more flutes becomes less inviting, cause you have to have a thumbhole put in.
Rats!

[monkeymonk]

@ChrisCracknell

With the thumb hole,on a RH flute, the LEFT index finger stays down when playing CNat.

Thanks Chris, that’s what i meant. I have worked too many years in the medical field with everyone’s right being on my left now my left has become the right .

@woodfluter

On the Olwell, oxx ooo comes out surprisingly strong.
Yes Jem, I know what you mean and this is usually more muffled but he’s made it work well here.
It is also nearly in tune, just a tad sharp of the tuner meaning about right in many contexts.

Yes, mine’s an Olwell pratten too. I found OXX OOO to be nice and strong and as you said a tad sharp but can you explain woodfluter what you mean by “about right in many contexts”? I’ve never had anyone give me the hairy eyeball for playing middle octave C natural a tad sharp as compared to the ever problematic A and B (particularly in the middle octave where they can make ears bleed).