Mystery Flute?

I bought this flute on ebay, and was wondering if anyone had a idea of it’s age and origin?Looks like a nice fixer-upper! It has a crown and “D” stamped into it, but no signiture. Yes, I am the same shmuck that bought that pakastan flute…Will he ever learn! (At least this one comes cracked already!)
Including a link to ebay because I had trouble importing pictures…
If anyone can give me any idea, would appreciate it! Jon

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/ebayisapi.dll?viewitem&item=1513225688

[ This Message was edited by: Jon C. on 2002-02-14 02:34 ]

Sorry, but that looks like a run-of-the-mill wall hanger.

If you held out to save another $200 (to add to the cost of both junk flutes) and 5 months, you could have ordered a killer Hammilton Keyless Flute ($552 with current exchange.

[ This Message was edited by: Mark_J on 2002-02-14 08:23 ]

Thanks for your positive comments Mark…
Have a nice day! jon

Sorry,

Having been burned myself with my first flute buy, I thought it to be a fairly charitable thing to give you negavite feedback on a flute with 4-5 cm crack in the head joint. That should run you $50-100 to fix before it can play without leaking. It is certainly beyond the superglue fix.

On 2002-02-14 02:31, Jon C. wrote:
Yes, I am the same shmuck that bought that pakastan flute…Will he ever learn! (At least this one comes cracked already!)

My Pakistani flute set me back $200 to start with. Then I spent $50 plus shipping to get a bone embouchure set in it to cover the hairline crack I fixed with superglue. It was really tough to fill anyway. In the end the first octave could be made to be in tune but the second octave E and F# were almost equal in pitch. A complete waste of nearly $300 on my part.

I posted this review a while back

I have one.

The most expensive piece of fire wood I ever purchased. Even a Generation whistle of the worst quality control would be 100x better than that piece of … from Pakistan. They are not in tune with themselves. I even had Glenn Schultz work on it. He did his best. The first octive is in tune. The second octive us useless. I do not believe that anyone could blow it in tune.

Do yourself a favor. If you really want a musical instrument of that quality, make one yourself with this method. Drink a case of black label beer. Rip down a curtain rod. Use a hammer and a nail to place six holes in it (it doesn’t matter where). Then use a fire ax to cut an embouchrue. If you were careless enough, it will sound as bad.

The bottom line is not cost, it having a playable instrument. Most of the instruments in lower price ranges on e-bay are not real playable.

I’m not an expert. The most constructive thing I could suggest would be to send an e-mail to David Migoya and as for his opinion as to how much it would cost to fix something like that before you buy it. You’ll know what your getting into. I don’t think David would try to sneak in on you (he has a good business reputation to maintain). I’m personnally going to do that whenever a particular flute comes available on e-bay or private sale (its been about 18 months since I’ve seen one available).

On other useful tidbit. Old flutes could be designed to play anywhere from A=415 to A=455, whereas todays concert pitch is A=440. Yes, concert pitch has shifted all about over the centuries. When an instrument has a tuning slide, you can shift the slide around so to make A=440. That doesn’t mean that the rest of the notes are in tune. A honest and dishonest seller can both say “I can play A=444.” There is no other way if the other notes are in tune.

I have never seen anyone give the advice to buy old flutes. Specific flutes may be in good playable condition, but the seller usually is able to qualify the flute well (which they do for bad flutes, too). There is almost no way that an attic-kept flute can be any good if it has been in the rafters for 40 years.

There are so many duds on the market in old used flutes. You get what you pay for, or worse.

Sorry the news is not good. I don’t see how sugar coating bad news or not telling you the bad news is doing you any favor.

That being said, I hope you end up playing it like John McKenna and prove me wrong.

[ This Message was edited by: Mark_J on 2002-02-19 14:57 ]

Thanks for your input Mark. Sorry you had to go through the Pakistan-German bone flute gammit! What a bummer.
I have contacted David Migoya and he has been very helpful.
This flute for me, will just be a fun project.
I have been repairing things for 25 years and have access to a lathe, milling machine and have friends that are quite talented to.
One is a german master craftsman. I was thinking of trying terry Mcgee idea off his web site and grafting a piece of wood on the inside of the socket. I figure that I will have to slowly Hydrate the wood so it will be able to close the crack. I don’t plan on just filling it with Zap glue. I am exploring the posibility of turning a new head piece for it and experment with that. I can get raw Delrin pretty cheap, 2" rod is $13.17 a foot. comes in white or black. It would be fun to make a tuning slide for it also…(I see a pile of Delrin bones…)
They have imitation ivory rod on the internet for $6 for 2"x 5" pieces, I may try to turn some new rings for it. Should be a fun weekend(s) project.
I will probably get a Olwell bamboo flute to practice on, the pakastan flute has problems with the higher register, among other things…
Iwill keep all you silent listeners posted as “The Project unfolds”. Jon

“Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread”

On 2002-02-20 01:28, Jon C. wrote:
. . . project. . .repairing. . .lathe. . .milling achine. . .friends. . .talented. . .german . . .Hydrate the wood. . .close the crack. . .turning a new head. . .Delrin. . .fun to make a tuning slide. . .imitation ivory. . .Should be a fun.

We had the Six-million Dollar Man, looks like we are going to have the Six-million Dollar Flute soon. I’d look for projects like that if I had access to that kind of equipment.

I will probably get a Olwell bamboo flute to practice

Olwell bamboo flutes are very nice. I have an F. Very loud, very light

Sounds like the only part of the original flute that will remain are the holes.
Cheers,
jb

10 points for JB!
They will be antique holes though!
Jon

mark:
i can’t agree on the old flute bit.
the issue here isn’t whether the flute will/won’t play at A=440…it’s whether the flute will play (or respond) to equal temperament tuning.
it’s for this reason that several of the old flutes require lipping or cross-fingering to make it work.
is it worth the extra work inplaying? must be…there are so many who prefer the sound of the older instruments that the newer ones just can’t match…probably because of the aged wood, although no one seems to be for sure on that point.
A good case is the Prowse flute on my website. Without modifications to the LH holes, it played at A=440 just fine…but not in equal temperament by today’s standards and the A/B were horribly sharp. The changes to the tone holes put is right in and now it’s just fine.
About the only old flutes that are irrepairable are those that are high pitch. It’s too much to get them down.
Low pitch are tough, too, but not as impossible.
I’ve played some great modern-made flutes…awesome sounds!..but none will or can take the place of my Rudall (or my Pratten). Then again, that’s just me! :slight_smile:

hey Jon,
I recently purchased a Dixon flute from the
Whistle Shop and am waiting for it as we speak. It only cost $200 with shipping included. Since I have not played one yet, I can’t tell you for sure how it plays but everything I have heard is very good. You may want to consider this for your next venture in flute buying. Hope all goes well with your research and playing.
Kevin-

Just got the flute together and checked the tuning… A=452hz LH-2 is A# and LH-3 is G#.
It has a nice mellow sound though, if I could just get low D to sound…I’m still fixing leaks, should of been a plumber! You think those keys are nice until you have to find the leak. The "ill fated Pakastan head fits on the antique flute! But it weighs twice as much as the hole Boxwood flute,and is a little to long. Work in progress. Jon


[ This Message was edited by: Jon C. on 2002-02-24 04:28 ]

play yer cards close to your jerkin… buy a Copley…or consult Migoya
Dave
newbie Copley owner

Hi Dave Parkhurst,
Your a poet, and I bet you didn’t know it!
I got the flute going today, after I did a major glue job, buffed the keys, and replaced the pads. David Migoya was very helpful with suggestions about the repairs.
One old work glove later,and a few drops of red sealing wax and the flute is nice and tight. When I first tried to play it it went “Sqweeeek”!, but after it soaked up some Almond oil(with Vit. E) it came alive!
It has a nice mellow sound, and is very responsive.
Still have to repair the ivory rings.
So far it has been a very fun project! The total expense for this well built 4 key flute so far is $220. And 99.9% is original,
even the holes! Jon

Jon,

Maybe you should contact Ferree’s and get some of those crack repairs kits. They look sort-of like tiny staples and they hold the crack together.
There was an article on this process in Woodwind Quarterly about a year ago. You should be able to find this through http://www.musictrader.com

Hi Danial,
Thanks for the advice, but I have already repaired the flute. The only thing that I have to do is turn two new Ivory rings for it. I found some old LEGAL ivory got it for $15+shipping.
The flute sounds great! Very vibriant! Everyday it becomes more alive. I sent the Freq’s. of each tone hole to Terry McGee. He said they were all on the money except I would have to tame the “A” because it was 60 cents out! I have’nt played around with that yet, I was going to use some wax in the hole to tune it.
I am sure the new flutes are nice and all but if you can find one of these old flutes I think they have a little extra something!
Jon

[ This Message was edited by: Jon C. on 2002-02-26 23:39 ]

Latest update on the Mystery Flute:
The flute maker marked the inside of the keys with roman numerals I,VII,VII,IV. So I figure that is when it was made 1774. A little wax in hole L-3 did the trick to bring it in tune A=440. The sound holes are under cut, the flute has a good hard D. I rebuilt the ivory rings by carving the missing piece out of ivory and pinning the ring on the inside with brass wire. If anyone can help me in identifing the maker’s mark (crown), I would much appreciate it. :smiley: Jon




http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jon_sparky/vwp?.dir=/My+Photos&.src=ph&.dnm=Flute+restoration.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/jon_sparky/lst%3f%26.dir=/My%2bPhotos%26.src=ph%26.view=t

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jon_sparky/vwp?.dir=/My+Photos&.src=ph&.dnm=Crown.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/jon_sparky/lst%3f%26.dir=/My%2bPhotos%26.src=ph%26.view=t




[ This Message was edited by: Jon C. on 2002-03-14 04:27 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Jon C. on 2002-03-14 04:37 ]

The roman numerals were a tactic used in houses that made flutes and parts in phases, hoping to match them with the ones they were meant for. So, a key “nicked” with “I” probably has that same mark around or hear the hole it was meant for.
If it were the year of manufacture, likely wouldn’t have been placed onto a key (unless it was a registered hallmark for the silversmith)…and at that, they’d have made it MDCCLXXIV for 1774.
Plus, (I remember when you sent these photos to me to look at) I don’t believe round keys were the fashion (and perhaps not even 4 keys on a flute for that matter yet) of the period. While they indeed were flat (and block mounted) it’s likely the keys were squared rather than round.
Anyway, all conjecture on my part. Glad your project is moving along so well.

Hello David,
You got a good point about those marks on the keys, they do have a mirror image of the mark on the flute body. With the tuning of A=450 would that put it about 1860’s? Just speculating. The flute doesn’t look like your typical “german factory flute” because of the wood blocks on the keys. the workmanship is very good, but maybe it was a good factory! I don’t think it was a sears and robucks flute, but who can say…
I managed to tune it by putting some wax in
the L3 hole, but the wax keeps falling out, is there a better way to do this? The holes are nicely undercut so it is hard to get the wax to stick…
i am going to turn another head piece for it, I wanted to make one with a tuning slide. What type would be best, Pratten perfected? I was wondering what shape to make the embouchure hole? I am going to practice with some delrin, I got some nice french boxwood to match the flute. The turning should take about a year, with the curing and all.
Any help would be appreciated!
PS I was in the desert for a week, took the flute- I would take it out play it for 15 min. and watch the dampit indicator dry out.
and quickly put it back in the case! Nerve racking! That Delrin flute is looking better all the time!

http://photos.yahoo.com/jon_sparky


[ This Message was edited by: Jon C. on 2002-03-26 01:35 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Jon C. on 2002-03-26 01:41 ]

Not sure that 1860s would be the right guess.
I certainly think it’s an English-made flute. The crown stamp alone would confirm that. I’m figuring, best guess again, at about 1820ish.
I’d not use a Pratten-shaped embouchure at all. I’d likely copy a Monzani or even an early Metzler as I don’t think the body of this flute would hold much more than that. Perhaps slightly oval, maybe round, but more likely the former.
Hope this helps!

David,
Thanks for the information!
I will probably try to copy the existing head, making it fairly thin and light weight,(the whole flute only weighs a 7 ounces!) Probably go with an elliptical embouchure, like it has now. I have access to a small laser for cutting the embouchure. Works from a AutoCAD program. The existing embouchure is undercut, would it be better to have the deeper chimney or to undercut the the hole?
Does anyone have any source for brass or silver tubing for the tuning slide?
Jon