Mechanical Tunes

Hello
In Dublin all pub sessions are run as gigs, i.e. two musicians are paid and anybody can sit in. Last night I visited a session that I had previously visited 6 months ago. Then fluter Lorraine Hickey and fiddler Liz Coleman were the resident paid musicians and it was a lovely session.
Unfortunately they had moved on and other musicians were now playing there. These were teenagers and technically very competant but their tune selections seemed to me to be very unmusical.
They played a lot of newly composed tunes or strange settings of tunes that showed off their technical prowess but were very bereft musically.
For example they played a reel, called by them ‘The Wedding Reel’, which is full of syncopated strains and orchestrated stops. They played this two part reel four times around and I could not discern any musical variations in the tune as they played it. It was as if they felt that the tune itself provided the variations so why should they further embellish it.
A lot of newly composed tunes would seem to me to have this trait, that the variations and embellishments are already written into the tune and that there is not much scope for the traditional musician to ‘flavour’ the tune himself. While these tunes are technically difficult to play, once the mechanics have been mastered then there is little that a musician can do with it.
While I am sure that these types of tunes would have their supporters, I believe they add little to the repertoire of the serious traditional musician.

John

When I was at Willie Week this year I also noticed some of the younger/teenage musicians going for the tunes bands like Lunasa (who popularised the Wedding Reel I think), Flook, etc recorded, in their sessions. They even copied the arrangements wholesale - which probably explains the orchestrated stops you mentioned. It is probably the current fad amongst them to play such tunes etc. Its all connected to the popularisation of hip sounding Irish instrumental bands, who often have different priorities than your average traditional musician has.

I’d have to agree with John. It’s extremely unsatisfying to have to take an already embellished tune and figure out what the original melody line might have been so you can play the ‘unornamented’ version as a variation. :roll:
In Cork, there are a lot of student sessions, as well as some more established ones, but I find that I prefer to go to some of the ‘older’ sessions on a regular basis, than the student sessions - not because the standard, whatever that is, is lower at the student sessions (it’s not), but because I don’t like playing all those new tunes every single week.
Deirdre

This is a really weird development. I really don’t think there’s any tune that can’t be varied. Have you tried varying it while they grind mechanically on and then discussing fundamentals when they react?

People sometimes learn to play blues and jazz by memorising and reproducing famous solos. But, if you turned up to a jam session and produced a well known solo note for note you’d be laughed out of the place. You might pick up your vocabulary through copying, although preferably not just one person, but you don’t pick up your sentences that way.

I’ve not encountered a session where this sort of imitation would be welcome, thankfully. I actually quite enjoy listening to the clever overarranged bands and I have no objection to this strand of the music being accepted. But I can’t see the point of mimicry in a session.

Well, I think that what happens is that people who compose tunes come up with the ‘cool variations’ that musicians use in older tunes, and use them instead of the original melody line that the variation was originally meant to embellish… So, for example, rather than write in ‘B2A2 G2D2’, it’ll be ‘BDAF GE{DEG}’ or something like that. I don’t have any actual tune in mind here, so I hope this makes sense to others! But what it means is that any available space within the tune is filled with notes (nature abhors a vacuum, and all that). I don’t know about anyone else, but I tend to add variations more to the sections of a tune where there are longer notes, than to the bits where there are constant eighth notes. So trying to vary a new tune is an entirely different kettle of fish. I’m sure it can be done, but I need to ‘un-ornament’ - find the bones of the tune - before I can do anything different. And that’s not a skill that I’ve perfected yet. Also, most newer tunes are meant to be played FAST - they sound great and are really energetic if you play them fast, but not so great if you try to slow them down. There isn’t a whole lot of time there for deconstructing the tune in order to vary it.
Also (and others may disagree here), people tend to use more written-in rhythmic variations (à la Flook or Lúnasa), which mean that undoing the rhythms is sometimes necessary to vary effectively. And, as above, there isn’t a huge amount of time in which to do that.
Having said all of this, I play new tunes, and enjoy them. But I find that if I play with certain people on a regular basis, that’s all I’ll get to play. And I can’t see the return in trying to vary something that sounds pretty good if you play it fast enough, and that I’m never going to want to play solo (precisely because I can’t do enough with it). Which is definitely the lazy man’s route. But then, I go to other sessions instead! :smiley:

Up Comhaltas!

http://www.comhaltas.com/seisiun/foinn.htm

:wink:

:smiley: :laughing: :smiley:

Some very good points here.

I enjoy playing some of the newer tunes too, but not as much as I used to. Like much of the popular music that informs and influences these tunes, they just don’t have much staying power and the syncopated/orchestrated stop thing gets stale pretty fast. To quote Berkeley Breathed, “they have the half-life of a flounder on the back porch.” Well, most of them anyways.

New tunes are good as attention-getters or trying to impress non-musicians though. I find that when I meet people who are unfamiliar with Irish music and they’re interested in hearing me play (particularly if they’re younger people), I tend to play something fast and showy a la Seamus Egan whereas I would likely not play like that if I were at a session.

If nothing else, many of these newer tunes feature a few accidentals and odd key changes, so they give your fingers a good workout.

Yeah, I do get the point I think. I wasn’t suggesting that it would be easy to come up with suitable variations, but, if you already had them worked out, I’d like to see the faces of the other players when you produced them unexpectedly. :sunglasses:

I’ve found with some old tunes that stripping away stuff I’ve learnt can be a lot of fun. I learn’t Out On the Ocean originally for concertina and it was full of Cs and F#s. I didn’t really think much about other versions I listened to until someone here suggested that this was essentially a pentatonic tune. At first I resisted the idea that it could possibly sound better played that way but I’ve had a lot of fun coming up with wholly pentatonic variations and now I’d be inclined to throw in the original version I learnt as just another variation on something simpler.

But I sense another complaint. Although simple, Out On the Ocean is a good tune. Listening to Paddy Keenan’s recorded version, I can imagine him varying it without repetition for half an hour and the whole performance would be riveting. I get the impression that you’re suggesting that a lot of these modern tunes aren’t really good tunes when you strip away the ornamentation; perhaps they aren’t even tunes at all. All icing, no cake. If so, they probably have no place in the session and, since the session is so much like the jam session, this situation isn’t going to change. Yes, I know there’s less space for real improvisation than in a jam session, but the fact that variation is subtle doesn’t meant that it isn’t of central importance. I can’t see that there isn’t room for the tradition to go in several different directions at once and what emerges on each branch still be thought of as traditional. But some of these directions won’t be session friendly. But so what; the session itself goes all the way back to, when? The 1950s or 60s?

Well, I don’t really know. Which sounds strange. But I enjoy playing and listening to these tunes, especially I haven’t been playing them for quite a while, as long as I don’t think too much about how repetitive they get. There’s something about playing at a very fast speed with a lot of other people, and all getting the cut-and-thrust-rhythm of a tune together, that can be very satisfying. And I do think that these are tunes, and Irish tunes at that - in fact, I know a couple of people who’ve written some really nice tunes in this vein, and they’re undoubtedly ITM; there’s just no way you can miss it. But they’re not really conducive to much variation, in the sense that I know it. It’s also possible to get a really nice session where you have a few of these tunes, and a lot of more traditional tunes, and it can be a really nice mix. As with everything, moderation is good.

Hello

There are several ways open to the traditional musican in embellishing or flavouring a tune. An individula note can be lengthened or shortened, accentuated or articulated. Embellishments are used by all the distinct regional (or homogenised) styles within Irish music. It is all down to the taste of the individual musician. When I listen to Johnny Doran playing the ‘Blackbird’ I am listening to a master musician flavouring a fairly simple tune. The tune has become the medium through which the musician expresses himself.

What I heard was not musicians expressing themselves but rather showing their technical ability in mastery of a particularly difficult (and nasty tune in my opinion) piece of music. The embellishments had already been written into the tune. They might as well have been playing from the sheet music.

Cheers

John

yeah i’ve seen this kind of performance, too. Not much fun, really.

I like the old tunes and prefer playing with people who like old tunes. Not that a new tune is worthless by virtue of its being new, if it’s any good I’ll learn it. But it needs to have long notes and a nyaahh to it, it needs to have interesting phrasing and possiblities for variation. If it’s just a flurry of notes intended to be played as fast as humanly possible, I’ll take a pass.

I CAN play really fast, but I don’t like to do it all the time, because a) it’s exhausting and b) it’s more difficult to use certain techniques, so the range of variations I can employ is reduced. Another thing that irks me is some people substitute speed for creativity, muscle memory for inspiration. It’s a joyless way to play music, and it has no appeal to me.

The tv program ‘The Raw Bar’ talked about new tunes. Ciaran Carson commented that it was impossible to remember new tunes. Considering the tunes features on the program that was an obvious point, Eoin Duignan, Cormac Breathnach and Emer Mayock among others played some of their own compositions and they were all very un-memorable pieces.
Among some of the other musicians passing comments was Liam O Connor who told the viewers he couldn’t be bothered by tunes with all these syncopations, there were plenty of old tunes to last him a few lifetimes. There are plenty of young musicians who think the same way.

On the piping board I already commented about some tunes played on RTE’s Comhaltas Fleadh program in which a group of very young musicians played a bunch of hyped up jig type tunes full of syncopation, very well played on the one hand and the first time the syncopations come round you may think the lads are going all fancy and modern [and why wouldn’t they, they were fifteen and brilliant] but when the time for the tunes repeat comes and they look at eachother as if to say ‘we’re really going to hit it now’ and then do exactly the same thing, the novelty instantly wears off. The presenter of the program, Pat Butler, commented how these young fellas were the proud product of the Comhaltas teaching system, carrying the music for years to come. [don’t even get me started on that].

On the other hand, there are so many new tunes, good tunes passing into the mainstream that are just accepted, moulded by the hands of the musicians they pass through, taking their place, becoming in time part of the stock in trade of the average musician. I pretty much think the trend will blow over and the good stuff will survive. Unfortunately though, as long as the Flooks and Lunasa’s of the world are successful outfits, the publicans will put on young people who play like that to bring punters.

I think Ciaran Carson also said, “there are only three ways to tell a story”. A story whose transcriptions are well written down on a piece of paper called sheet music… sometimes the book has a title like ‘Lunasa: Redwood’

Wow…so there ARE young musicians who copy Lunasa and Flook, in Irish music sessions!? How does a musician who’d just jumped in get used to the strange variations in the rhythm??
As for Flook, no offence folks, but I seriously thought Flook was a pop (pop) folk band. Not to be copied word-perfect in my local pub, ever, I hope. I got their CD about a month ago, I listened to the first two songs and then decided to sell it. Got about $4 back. Bought me an Irish coffee instead and, as I took my first sip, reminded myself that pop bands ‘pop’ easy.

BTW, I do enjoy listening to Lunasa, but not every single tunes they play.

Yeah, there are musicians mimiking Flook and Lunasa, and they usually destroy the session’s chemistry. There’s people who want to share the music, and there’s people who want to share themselves.

Peter Laban wrote;

Emer Mayock among others played some of their own compositions and they were all very un-memorable pieces

In my opinion She has written some fine and memorable tunes “Almost Blue” being a favourite of mine. Maybe it’s because I am not a ITM purist and don’t look too deeply into the why’s and wherefores of Irish music. I just know what I like.

Azalin wrote;

Yeah, there are musicians mimiking Flook and Lunasa, and they usually destroy the session’s chemistry

I have to disagree again, Sarah Allens “Bruno and A quiet Autumn” are great tunes to play towards the end of a session. Obviously if the musicians playing the tunes aren’t particularly handy then that might happen. Surely if they can’t play them well they probably can’t play other tunes well either so the sessions knackered anyway.


Dave.

although there’s a saying that if you loathe a monk you’ll loathe his clothes, that I do not enjoy Flook does not mean I refuse to listen to pop ITM. I listen to them from time to time, might copy some of their tunes if they’re catchy and all, but will not feel comfortable showing off the leant tunes to the other musicians who do not quite like listening to contemporaries. Some pieces are best played at concerts (to get the crowd going; as an entertainment) or among youth-worshipping circles where tech ability in all its glory can be savoured and devoured. I’d go on as far to say that some songs are only good for brushing up one’s tech. Don’t get me wrong, I read somewhere that one of the greatest pipers once said “I play them fast because I can.” Tunes originally composed and aimed at being played real fast – that I can live with, and will learn to play some fast reels (though on a whistle) and share the speed-tech drug where such practice is welcomed. I’d even enjoy being ‘youthfully high’.

“Enjoy the wife of one’s youth,” so it is said but I’d like to add, “not too much.”

Being able to rock upon Lunasa or Flook (----) in a session does not automatically make you a hip ITM player (from whence came the T part, anyway? “(new) traditional”?) A band can mimick Flook perfectly, without a miss, and I admit there are plenty of good copy-cats who can actually play, and will praise their efforts for being able to move their fingers and kidneys busy. I’m not talking about originality here(I never think of being original. “Nothing’s our own by our nature”.)…I’m just wondering if they’re, at the same time, good at playing good ole tunes which, well, satisfy good ole people. I’m so glad to know there are many who are not exclusively stuck to the extremes – be it the latest or the oldest.

Hmmm…

Well, I quite like some of Emer Mayock’s tunes. Eoin Duignan has written a few nice ones as well. He’s probably better known for his original tunes and he doesn’t have fingers of quicksilver or anything, but I’ve been fortunate to play with Eoin a number of times and when he plays trad., he has a great gift for variations.

But enough on matters of taste. I think that the primary concern here is that (younger) musicians are mimicking the playing of popular bands/musicians rather than attempting to put their own stamp on the tunes they play. Frankly, I’m not too worried about it because something tells me that when these musicians are in their thirties and forties, I seriously doubt they’ll still be trying to sound like Lunasa or Flook or whoever note for note. When kids are thrashing away in garage bands, usually their goal is not to put some kind of unique stamp on the three chord wonder they’re playing, but to closely approximate what they heard on a CD. Much of the time, any originality that comes of it probably has more to do with an improper processing of influences than anything else. As musicians grow older, the desire to do one’s own thing usually increases.

I’m also not particularly concerned about the Irish tradition being swamped with syncopated, breakbeat-driven reels. Naive though it may sound, the invisible hand we call “the tradition” will in all likelyhood sweep a lot of this stuff into a dustbin over the coming decades. It’s the same with pop music, really. Irish music was (for Irish people anyways) pop music until relatively recently and the stuff that was both good and poplular survived while the stuff that was disposeable was, well, disposed of. Sometimes melodies that were really good didn’t make it and sometimes ones that weren’t so good miraculously dodged the bullet of evolution, but all in all, I think the above model works. Do you think anybody is going to care about a lot of the songs that are in this week’s Billboard Top Forty ten or twenty years down the road? Probably not. They’re disposeable. They’re not meant to last. They get people’s attention briefly, and then the vast majority of the time, they disappear into obscurity.

Okay, now apologies for going a bit off the deep end here and digressing, but bear with me. The other night I was watching the film “Donnie Darko” (which, to blunder even further off topic is a great movie, by the way), the soundtrack of which is loaded with '80s pop music. Some of this music was by bands that I really, really like (Echo and the Bunnymen, Joy Division, etc) and in my opinion, I think such music has stood the test of time pretty well. Some of the music was stuff that I hadn’t heard at all since the '80s. The point of all this is that with any musical tradtion, the rotten/boring/faddish stuff usually gets rooted out. Bands like “Moving Hearts” are already slipping from our collective memory and likely, a lot of the bands/musicians who are selling a lot of CDs right now and getting a fair bit of press will suffer the same fate. There’s some new tunes being played now that we’ll probably still hear twenty years down the road and a whole lot more that we’re not likely to hear ever again.

So next time you hear some young thing blasting through some fast, flashy, newly-penned tune, don’t worry about it. That musician probably won’t be playing it for very long.

The episode of the Raw Bar I mentioned selected a bunch of players playing new tunes, I questioned the selection while looking at it because ther are many good new tunes the selection of the programme was a bunch of as I said very unmemorable tunes. Were they unmemorable because I am a ‘traditionalist’ with a closed ear and a narrow mind. No they weren’t they were unmemorable for a variety of reasons, mainly because they weren’t very inspired tunes or tried to please the ear by acrobatics rather than inner beauty.

It doesn’t worry me at all people are copying popular bands, when I started learning groups would deluge into a session and roll off De Dannan or Stockton’s Wing arrangements note perfect. You grow out of it.

I remember one morning during a 1980s Willie Clancy week, out side the reedmaking workshop a young piper took advantage of the acoustics of the gents and tore at max speed through Coppers and Brass in a style lifeted off a popular tear away. It being later in the week and early in the morning I sighed’ oh for fecksake’. Chris Langan, whom I was in conversation with, looked at me and said ‘Peter, he’s young, he’s finding a style. He’ll be OK’. He was right ofcourse.

But this is actually drifting away a bit from the original question, about the shape of tunes.

Well, nice topic!

But … how do you perform variations?

I’m the kind of player who is used to play by muscles memory (like someone else said) simply because variations don’t come by themself. Actually, I can accentuate or change a roll for single notes or the inverse but to really change a whole bar and staying tuned with everybody around (like some players can do) … well it’s another thing!

Does any of you, inspired players, have any advice on how doing real variations?

Francois

Speak friend and enter