Recently read some great posts on low d whistle and have a question. I have two “plastic” whistles and one aluminium. On the plastic ones it is hard to play the lowest d. You almost seem to have to whisper or it will jump up to the second octive. Not so on the aluminium.
Is this normal? Or just the way whistles behave?
Thanks from a new low d player.
It not a matter of plastic versus aluminium but the particular design of the individual whistles. Generally speaking, if the windway is narrow you will get more backpressure, more resistance when you blow and the bottom D will be stronger. Conversely with a wider windway, you get a more free blowing whistle but the downside tends to be a weaker more sensitive D that requires less air. However, with these latter whistles, the upper second octave is usually easier to play more relaxed and the opposite holds for the former whistles. A strong bottom D is usually accompanied by an upper second octave that requires a lot of sustained pressure. There is always a compromise. What you’re saying is normal. Why not tell us the names of the whistles? Different makes tend to have different amounts of backpressure and air requirement. Hope this helps a little.
Here’s where the Whistle Obsessive Acquisition Disorder strikes. There is an amazing amount of engineering that goes into whistle making, and the more I search for the perfect whistle, the more respect I have for the makers. Tiny changes (for instance, the wind way height) make HUGE differences in the way a whistle plays and sounds. Even the highest end models exhibit variation. The MK whistles, which are all built with very precise machining, will favor one end or the other (as in stronger bottom end with harder push at the top, or thinner bottom end with an easier blowing top, according to Mr. Sommerville).
Players will often purchase multiple whistles from various manufacturers before they find a whistle that really suits their personal preferences. Some players will love whistles that other players are less thrilled with. They aren’t necessarily bad whistles. In fact, they could be great whistles. It just comes down to what a player is looking for and where he/she finds the compromises acceptable. I’ve been through four low D’s and am waiting on a new one from Colin Goldie. Each whistle has had some characteristics I liked about it and some that I did not.
In addition, some players have multiple whistles for different occasions. If a song favors the high range, they might use a whistle that matches, whereas if a tune stays in the lower octave, a whistle with a more robust low end might be selected. I’m still looking for my perfect “all-rounder”. I had a long talk about what I was looking for in a whistle, so I’m hoping that the one I get for Colin checks off all the necessary boxes for me.
Thanks guys. After reading, the back pressure thing makes sense. Mike the two plastic whistles are a Susato and Tony Dixon. The aluminium is a Chieftan V3. I don’t have any problem getting air into the Chieftan, so I like this for playing the lowest d and then pumping it up on the second octave. The Dixon has a nice sound but I have to really think when playing the low d and e. I can see where having several whistles can be useful. My primary instrument is a mountain dulcimer. Usually play with out with several other mountain dulcimers, hammered dulcimer, banjo and guitar players. Sometimes volume can be an issue. I have been playing high d when we get together and have thought about adding a low whistle. So I’m looking for input from all as to what you all think. So does back pressure mean more volume on the bottom d?
So does back pressure mean more volume on the bottom d?
back pressure means back pressure!
Any characteristic of a whistle is the combination of several things - thinking that if I just increase the back pressure I’ll have a great bottom D for example will tend to lead you down a blind alley.
Since you mentioned back pressure - Back pressure can be altered by several things: windway height, width and length - all perhaps obvious, but also window length, and probably* lip shape, ramp angle and details of the body (bore, holes etc.)
Some of these will increase the back pressure and reduce the volume of the low D, opposite of your desire.
A whistle is a simple instrument - a tube with six holes and a mouth piece - but a complex set of compromises. Being a set of compromises there will be NO perfect whistle.
- I say probably because back pressure is not one of my primary design goals in making a whistle so I have no experience with variations in design and back pressure.
You are definitely correct that a lot more factors come into the beefy bottom D/easy high notes factor. My “all-rounder” low D of choice has the strongest D of any low D whistle I’ve ever played, and has extremely low back pressure (and unfortunately consumes air quickly, which is a drawback), and also the easiest to reach high notes of any I’ve played, and good volume, so certainly a lot more things are responsible for the bottom D than backpressure alone. If low backpressure were the only thing responsible, the whistle would have the weakest low D, but rather it has a very strong honkin’ low D .
I am also interested in hearing the other factors that would influence this. Bore size plays a pretty big role in strength of low notes, ease of high notes, and volume, does it not? I recently got an A whistle with a very narrow bore size for it’s key, and it has the characteristics of a weaker low note, easy high notes and octave transitioning (for me), and lower volume. I think it’s definitely worth mentioning this factor, too, as it seems to be a strong contributer so far, in my experience. I don’t think any single factor can be pointed towards being the sole contributer to these aspects of the instruments playability and sound.
I hope some builders will chime in on this, too. I assume even more than those two things could be responsible.
Sirchronique, even if you have to PM me I would like to know what your “all-rounder” whistle is. Ic an only think of Burke but I don’t think the Burke reaches high notes easily. Let me know will you please. Hammy Hamilton is one builder who has attempted to address what he called the “ light bottom, hard top” syndrome in low whistles. Read his article at http://www.hamiltonflutes.com/Low_Whistles.html. I have been tempted to try one of his whistles. Unfortunately, we all have different preferences with respect to tone and I primarily love the Overton/Goldie sound so am also working with Colin to get the whistle I want.
Going back to Dulcimer, the whistles you have make sense with regard to your problem. The Susato and Dixon will have low backpressure and a sensitive bottom D. But, if it is the tapered Dixon you are talking about, you can do an easy “tweak” that has been discussed much on C&F by inserting a thin piece of plastic card in the windway. I have not done it permanently with glue as is suggested but in a couple of seconds I can turn the Dixon into a low whistle with a solid bottom D and a harder to reach upper second octave. As AngelicBeaver suggest we are talking about very slight differences often barely measurable.
From what I’ve read volume is a function of tone hole size, fipple window size, and bore dimensions. And of course the whistler.
Guido Gonzato discribes some of these factors nicely;
http://www.ggwhistles.com/howto/index.html
I’ve very little experience with low whistles, but I can say that the Goldie low d
I have is wonderful.
Interesting discussion.
I would agree that Mikethebook is right on the material having nothing to do with what Dulcimer Bill has observed with his whistles.
I would however be more likely to agree with highwood on back pressure and it’s relation to solid low notes, octave flipping and such. But I can also see where someone might make the observation that Mikethebook has offered. A whistle with high resistance might “seem” to be stronger at the bottom since it would take a lot of effort to blow hard enough to flip octaves especially in relation to a free blowing design. In the case of the constrained windway the narrow aperture has the effect of lowering the players input and acts as a sort of barrier to overblowing. It’s a neat idea really.
I tend to prefer more free blowing whistles myself. I’d rather play the whistle than have the whistle play me. Copeland and O’Riordan low D’s do seem to have a strong bell note and they are free(ish) blowing designs. I have several Burke low D’s. They are each voiced differently and their difference is a matter of degrees between them. One is really sweet at the top end (and a little weaker at the bottom end). Another has a nice bell note and takes a little more velocity to hit the high notes. Both are very usable across their range. And I really don’t think the top end is hard to hit on any Burke. Having owned about three dozen or more different Burkes, I’d say they have, on the whole, one of the smoothest and less exaggerated breath pressure slopes in the industry. We all have different requirements, experience and preferences. The design of a whistle is a dance of many variables - as highwood has pointed out.
The bore does have an effect on how notes will speak and sound. So too does the design of the head, hole size, wall thickness, the window dimensions, etc. So you can’t expect just the bore to determine how the top or bottom notes will play. There is a fairly narrow range of acceptable bore sizes for a low D which will result in an instrument that plays well across two octaves. But on the whole a narrow bore will favor higher notes and the larger bore will favor lower notes. Overall playability is a dance of many variables.
Dulcimer Bill, your observations on the Dixon don’t necessarily agree with mine. That’s no matter. As I said, we all have different preferences and experience.
The answer to that question is, “not necessarily”. But it happens that some of the better made whistle that use high resistance have good volume as well. They are just good whistles all around. It’d be a cakewalk to make a low D with high resistance that is also quiet.
Interesting discussion.
Feadoggie
Indeed that is the whistle I am referring to. Doesn’t reach high notes easily? It reaches high notes very easily, with little effort, and barely takes any pushing to reach notes like high A and B and above. I am somebody who really prefers easier blowing whistles with easy to reach high notes and octave transitions with little effort. Of the 5 low D’s I’ve played, the Burke was the easiest in the high end, by quite a bit. Despite the ease in the high notes, mine has a very very strong bell note.
I don’t know how much these whistles vary from whistle to whistle, but I can at least say for certain that my Brass Viper is a very easy blowing whistle with little push required for the high notes. I just picked it up and gave it a toot, and I am puzzled by how these high notes could be considered to require a push. I should mention that mine was made in 2012. Maybe the design has changed, I don’t know.
Great info guys. Learning a lot about low whistles. I have two Burke high d’s. Session brass and narrow bore aluminium. Thinking about an aluminium low d from him. Would there be much difference in the bell note between brass and aluminium? Or would the two metals make that much difference?
Again, the material is trivial compared to the design and construction of the whistle.
Michael Burke uses the same design on both the aluminum and brass models. A listener would likely hear very little difference between the two. The player might perceive the brass to ring a bit and be a tad more resonant than the aluminum. The weight and color are the big differences between the brass and aluminum. Some people do not like the smell or taste of brass. Some folks do not like the smell or taste of aluminum. The delrin mouthpiece on each insulates the player from direct contact with the metal parts but some might still have issues anyway. If you are not one of those then do you like the silver or gold color?
The composite Burkes do sound different from the metal ones. They are a bit more mellow sounding. They still play in a similar way to the metal whistles. Do you like dark grey? The eerie thing about the Burke composite whistles is how light they are.
So consider whether you like your whistles freakishly light, light or a little more stout. Or consider whether you like silver, black or gold better. You’ll get a good whistle no matter which you pick.
Feadoggie
I think the only solution is to try them all!
I tried two of his high D session whistles, with one in aluminum, and one in brass, and I could tell a very slight difference, however I wouldn’t leave it up to the material as much as the fact that they were made during very different years, the aluminum I played being quite older than my brass. Not to mention, even with one made in the same year I think there will be a tiny margin of difference from whistle to whistle. The difference really isn’t enough to matter, though. I like brass because I like the nice antiqued look it gets, and I also like a heavy whistle.
It’s worth noting that when I asked Michael Burke about whether or not the brass viper pro had a rotating bottom hole, he said it did not, because the brass had to be thinner walled than the aluminum. Perhaps this could also contribute to a very slight difference, as well. I never played any of his low D’s other than the brass. I can say that you will get a strong bell note with either, though. It seems from what I have read most of those people owned aluminum, and also commented on the strong bell note. His aluminum low E has a strong bell note too. I think his low whistles are pretty well known for having a very strong bell note that you can lean on .
I think everything Feadoggie is saying is correct, and I think he has a lot more experience with burkes than I do, especially the same keys in different materials. I can tell a slight difference, but I don’t know if the listener can, and I wouldn’t say it’s a large enough difference to matter, either, as well as it likely being due to factors other than the material itself (wall thickness, individual variances between whistles, made during different time periods). If you are somebody who gets sore hands from playing low D’s, take note that the brass is heavy. However, it is a good whistle for self defense.
The differences I notes on the two higher whistles of different materials did not relate to the strength of bell note, or ease of high notes. I can only assume it’s the same with the lower whistles too, but I could be wrong about that.
I’ve been playing Low D whistles since the 1970s and “the back pressure thing” doesn’t make much sense to me. I never heard that term until I joined this board.
As a Highland piper, all Low D whistles have negligible backpressure to me.
But anyhow as you play more and more Low Ds you appreciate more and more how difficult, or impossible, it is to create the “perfect” Low D.
People have mentioned a tradeoff between Bottom D and the high notes. I haven’t noticed that as much as the tradeoff between Low E and High B. There are whistles which have a booming Bottom D, such as Burkes, which don’t have a particularly strong Low E. In general the stronger Low E is, the less-sweet High B is.
I’ve owned, now, five different MK Low Ds and my “keeper” has the sweetest High B of the lot but also the strongest Bottom D. The MK with the most powerful low range in general had the least-sweet High B. (In my opinion MKs would be “perfect” if only they had a Bottom D like a Burke’s.)
The sweetest, most lovely high range I’ve had on any Low D I’ve owned was a Copeland… but it’s low range was horrible. I had to back off to a tiny whisper to get Low E and Bottom D to sound at all.
All Low D whistles represent a bundle of compromises between the low range, the high range, the laws of acoustics, and human anatomy.
Anyhow there’s no substitute for going out and trying Low Ds from every leading maker, multiple examples from each maker if possible, and playing them a lot, and coming to your own conclusions.
As I stated earlier, I play primarily a mountain dulcimer. Yesterday we played at a nursing home. Five dulcimers, one hammered dulcimer, one guitar and three autoharps. Two of us play whistles on some of the songs. Two songs we did yesterday were Rosin the Beau and Simple gifts. We usually harmonize on the whistles on these two songs. These two start out in the lower octave. That’s why I’m interested in strong lower notes. I plan on sitting down with the other whistle player and working on these as a start. The Chieftan has a stronger lower note than the Dixon. So from what I’m reading, there are trade offs on whistles and their construction. This has been a real eye (ok, ear) opener for me. And I really appreciate all the great info you are all giving me.