Low-D piper's grip, both hands or just lower.

Whistle
1

The question is whether to use the standard grip or piper’s grip on the upper hand (assuming lower hand always uses piper’s grip) on a low-D whistle?

I could skip to the obvious answer and tell myself – practice both ways for a while and see what you like best.

I can easily usage a standard grip on the upper hand on my low D. (I can actually get my finders on my lower hand on the holes with regular grip except the stretch and tension would make it to impossible to lift fingers and then place them down in the same spot so I could never play that way.) I was watching the first couple Phil Hardy tutorials and noticed he used the piper’s grip with both hands. So I tried it for a bit. The plus with the piper’s grip with the upper hand is that there is less tension and it’s easier to move fingers up and down. The minus is I have to be more careful to get the holes covered as it’s harder to cover the holes with the piper’s grip.

So, back to the obvious answer, I’m playing some each way to see what I like best but I’m thinking that if practice gets me covering the holes reliably, I’ll start to prefer the piper’s grip with the other hand.

Anyone have any thoughts on the subject?

2

Pipers grip all the way, 1000%.

Whenever this topic comes up someone mentions Brian Finnegan. Who’s an incredibly good player, who uses tip grip. He’s also the only single low whistle tip grip player I’ve ever seen who played at a high level.

Going with that, I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve seen someone complain about how hard low D is (note I’m not saying you are doing this, I’ve just seen it many times), or how they can play a song on their high d but cant come close on their low D (and I’m not talking about anything crazy fast that would actually be too hard on a low D, if that even exists). And then mention not using a pipers grip. Hmmmmmmm I wonder why.

Going back to Brian Finnegan. Most tip grip low D attempts I see don’t even look anything like his grip. Most people who try to tip grip low D (that I’ve seen at least), use something like the left hand on irish flute grip, but on both hands (where their fingers are angled, see link below). But its not an irish flute. The holes are usually always bigger and farther apart. Watching people play that way, it usually never looks natural.

To anyone who doesnt know normal Irish flute grip, skip to 9:51 in this video
https://youtu.be/goCd1mEWsWs?t=591

I’ve mostly talked about others because I haven’t been paying that long compared to many others here, so giving assorted pseudo statistics makes more sense than talking about myself. My goal is to become the best player I can, which involves trying to make sure I’m doing things as optimally as possible. So on to my experience. Even with big hands, pipers grip feels miles better. I started whistle with the intentions to play low whistle. So I pipers gripped pretty much anything I could. Which was overkill. But on low whistles, I just see 0 gain. Even with massive hands that can technically tip grip, its less natural. Pipers grip I don’t have to stretch at all. Once you find your proper hand position, your fingers may just naturally go over the holes. My low C# I need to stretch the slightest bit. So I’m not sure why I’d ever want to have to stretch or anything to tip grip when I can not stretch and pipers grip.

A very important thing is making sure you do the pipers grip properly. Everyone has different hands. So it may take a little bit of experimentation to find the perfect position, hand angle, etc. I think this is where a lot of people drop off and become people who complain about not being able to play low D. If they try to pipers grip wrong, and cover holes with the wrong parts of their fingers, or have poor hand angle that makes them have to stretch badly, its going to feel like a bad grip.

My short wall of text on how to pipers grip properly. (Hole numbers counting in order from the mouthpiece). This is pretty much what whistle tutor says to do, and is pretty much just backwards finger order to Phil Hardy’s tutorial.

-Cover holes 3 and 6 with your ring finger tips, where you have the little nub. That should sit in the hole. Smaller whistles (like low F) you may want to cover the hole closer to your joint.

-Angle your hands so that your fingers are pointing up up ish towards the whistle end. Now rotate your hands out until your middle fingers, middle pads (the middle of your finger, in between the two joints), covers the holes (holes 2 and 5). On your right hand this will be the big hole. Its important that your joint doesnt touch the hole. This usually always causes leaking. If your finger is big enough you can have the hole closer to the joint closest to your hand.

-The remaining holes, 1 and 4, should be covered with the middle of your pointer finger. Because the hole is small it can be much closer to the joint.

Playing with hand angle can help to find the ideal location. Somewhere between 45 and 90 degrees (90 being perpendicular to the whistle)

This mini tutorial is more for any random readers who it may help.

I’m obviously a little overly passionate on this subject. I just always see people (primarily on youtube comments and reviews) mentioning or asking if they can tip grip a lower whistle. And I feel liek they are just handicapping their progress as a whistle player. Because if they just learned the pipers grip, they wouldnt have a hard time with low whistles, and wouldnt need to try and find a tip grip friendly one.

And to anyone I just summarized. I mean no offence, I just want people to make as much progress with the instrument as possible.

To learn2turn, you can obviously try out both if you want. I just think it will slow progress, because it could make the switch feel more awkward. The best way to break a habit is to hard stop.

Just my opinions. Best of luck on whichever you chose.

3

Thanks for all the great info. I definitely piper grip with the right hand but I’m going to keep practicing it with the left hand.

I did try one thing today that was harder. One march I play has a chromatic four-note run with a G# accidental – F#,G,G#,A. Half-holing the G# on my high-D with a tip is easy peasy. On a low D with a piper’s grip, the 3 hole is still a tip but when I try to slide my finger to half-hole, the alignment on the middle pads for hole 1 and 2 get messed up. Of course I tried it all of four or five times. I need to work on it for 20 minutes and I but I’ll get it.

-l2t

4

I started with a low D whistle myself, both hands using piper’s grip, and it’s the only way I can play anything bigger than a Bb whistle. Actually I’m even using a sort of piper’s grip on my Sweetone C and Generation Bb for just the right hand cause the uneven spacing of the lowest 3 holes forces my hand into weird position.

When I got my Carbony low C with close finger spacing, I debated whether I should use my finger tips for the left hand cause the holes are quite close together plus super small too so my tiny tips are able to easily cover them, however at that point I was used to piper’s grip already so I stuck with it.

I’m not sure if this message is of any value, just my personal experience.

5

Agree 100%.

I just can’t understand why people would consciously choose a more difficult and more uncomfortable way of doing something when an easier and more comfortable way is there right in front of them.

I’m reminded of the time I saw a guy struggling to get through a crowd holding a camera which was attached to a big tripod AND THE TRIPOD WAS FULLY OPEN AND SPLAYED OUT.

I felt like yelling “IT FOLDS UP YOU EEJIT!”

Hand strain is dramatically reduced or eliminated with pipers’ grip.

I will say that coming from Highland pipes I didn’t initially use pipers’ grip on the upper hand. Some Highland pipers do, but I was one of the ones who didn’t.

And like many Highland pipers, when I took up the uilleann pipes I transferred my Highland grip to the uilleann chanter, rather than learn the proper uilleann upper-hand grip. (Highland pipers and uilleann pipers have pretty much the same lower-hand grip.)

And I continued with this grip when I took up Low Whistle.

That is, until I began playing bigger whistles like Low C and Bass A. It was then that I relearned my upper-hand grip, and began using a proper Low Whistle pipers’ grip.

I’ve also started using the proper uilleann upper-hand grip, which is similar.

To be specific, the so-called “pipers’ grip” used by Low Whistle players has the end-joint pads of the ring fingers sealing their holes, but uses the middle-joint pads of the index and middle fingers to seal their holes. Thus both hands use the same grip. (On the uilleann pipes only the upper hand uses this grip.)

6

I do think I’m likely the piper’s grip better than the tip grip on the left hand.

But, 1/2-holing hole three for a G#, I can’t figure out a way to do it and keep holes 1 and 2 covered.

If I try to bend my knuckle of my 3-finger to cover half the hole on one side of the whistle, 2-finger leaks air.

I can slide my 3-finger sideways down the whistle to cover the the lower half of the hole, I don’t get very good tone.

Any suggestions for half-holing a G# on a low-D whistle with piper’s grip on both hands?

-l2t

7

For sure I use different half-holing approaches depending on which grip I’m using (high whistle or low whistle) and which hole is involved.

On the Low Whistle “pipers grip” since the ring fingers are using their endjoint pads, I keep the three fingers of the involved hand flat and rotate the whole hand, pivoting on the index finger, which withdraws the ring finger. To be clear none of the fingers arch, all staying flat.

Since the middle finger is flat it seals its hole just the same as it passes over its hole. The index finger is rotating a bit on its hole which doesn’t affect the sealing either.

It’s harder to describe than to do! Maybe I could make a Youtube video.

8

What would help is knowing if the top half of hole (toward fipple) is open, the bottom half, or right side of the hole.

I can’t rotate my hand with flat fingers so that the right side of the hole is open. I can so that the top half of the hole is open but I haven’t gotten a clean tone with that technique.

-l2t

9

The “right” or “left” depends on whether it’s Hole 3 or Hole 6, and which hand the player has uppermost.

The index finger stays in place on Hole 1 or 4 though rotating slightly, the middle finger, staying flat, moves a bit across Hole 2 or 5, the ring finger also staying flat moves with the rest of the hand (towards that hand’s elbow) which cracks open Hole 3 or 6 due to the tip of the finger retreating slightly across the hole.

I use a completely different technique on Hole 2 or 5, and on Hole 1 or 4.

10

Love this tune and see the piper grip on both hands –

https://youtu.be/gffi7iYk7z8?t=26

Now this video, Stephanie is using a tip grip on the left while covering the tune above. It doesn’t look comfortable at all to me but I guess it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUSzWN02-38&t=172s

I’ve been using the piper grip since I asked about this a few weeks ago and I’m liking it better. But I can’t feel the holes as well so I need to warm up with a few scales before I try to play or else I get so many leaks when I try to play, it sounds horrid. After a minute or two of scales I find the correct finger position and can then start to play.

-l2t

11

Glad to hear its been going better. keep at it, it will get even easier over time.

On the second video, I agree that it looks uncomfortable. Which is just one of the reasons I say everyone who wants to low D should learn pipers grip. It can be possible to play without it, but it will very likely be a limiting factor in what they can play.