Is your goal to play in sessions?

Whistle
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On 2002-04-08 14:19, The Weekenders wrote:
I got together with a supposed experienced session player and another player. When I wanted to play 'Lord Inchiquin" the guitarist frowned and said in “well, O’Carolan’s not really Irish music is it, now.” i think he was just covering for the fact that it was a tune he didn;t know. Ironic, as it would be about 3 chords max to fake it on that one. But tell me session players, is OCarolan’s musica non grata and I don;t know about it??

It is definitely looked down upon in some quarters. I was warned against playing any of his tunes in the Fleadh last year, for instance – certain judges would not accept them.

Silly, if you ask me. They certainly seem to get played fairly often by many Irish musicians.

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I’m afraid to say it, but O’Carolan tunes are generally not played at sessions. I think a lot of the more advanced players sometimes get frustrated because newcomers often try to play O’Carolan tunes, partly because they are generally easier to play, and that has further hurt O’Carolan’s session credibility. It’s best to steer clear of them in sessions. There are thousands of other tunes which will be more than welcome in a session. Why not learn some of them?
Chris

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Well, just for the sake of answering why I would play OCarolan…

I know many many other tunes but I like them for variety, plain and simple. It seems narrow-minded to avoid them but hey, I am the beginner here and I believe and respect what you have said.

Thanks for letting me in on this knowledge.

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tried to delete doublepost. Webmaster, do your magic.




[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-04-08 15:06 ]

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On 2002-04-08 14:35, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
I’m afraid to say it, but O’Carolan tunes are generally not played at sessions.

O’Carolan tunes have always been welcome at sessions that I have frequented. I think that if I knew ahead of time that folks at a given session were too opinionated or stuck up to play 'em then that would be a session I would avoid.

Cheers,
David

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While O’Carolan’s music certain is Irish, it isn’t the sort of music that’s traditionally been played at sessions. Sessions are all about dance music, and have been such for as long as I know. O’Carolan wrote his tunes for wealthy patrons… not exactly the same folk who were meanwhile playing the dance tunes. When you look at it objectively, you find that traditional music and O’Carlolan tunes don’t come out of the same traditional at all.

At a lot of the sessions I’ve gone to, O’Carolan tunes have been treated somewhat like slow airs or songs. One or two in a night is acceptable, but unless this is a session meant for that sort of music, for the most part they should be avoided. There’s a huge difference in mindset between playing a reel and playing something like Planxty Morgan Magan. I personally prefer the jigs and reels by far to O’Carolan tunes. While I wouldn’t mind playing a couple during the course of a session, continually pulling out those tunes would get annoying quickly.

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Notes on your quotes in the spirit of discussion, not polemics:

[quote]
On 2002-04-08 15:15, TrevorC wrote:
“While O’Carolan’s music certain is Irish, it isn’t the sort of music that’s traditionally been played at sessions. Sessions are all about dance music, and have been such for as long as I know.”

But how many people dance at sessions, I ask? i get the feeling that you want an atmosphere where they COULD dance, but tempos for dancing seem less-considered these days, based on records et al…

" When you look at it objectively, you find that traditional music and O’Carolan tunes don’t come out of the same traditional at all."

Agreed, but the body of traditional tunes is so huge that people don;t always know what they;re playing. I have found Ocarolan melodies (Planxty Mrs. Oconnor and One Bottle More) called other things in Norbecks tune index for example. As long as we don;t know it was for the wealthy, it’s okay to actually play the notes???

“At a lot of the sessions I’ve gone to, O’Carolan tunes have been treated somewhat like slow airs or songs. … I personally prefer the jigs and reels by far to O’Carolan tunes.”

I believe One Bottle More and Mrs. Oconnor are jigs but maybe I am force-fitting them. Inchiquin is perhaps a march, though notated in a tunebook as in 3 (seems like one of those tunes that ought to be measured in 2/2 or something)? But many sure make nice airs as you say, which is why I like them for variety.


“While I wouldn’t mind playing a couple during the course of a session, continually pulling out those tunes would get annoying quickly.”

Point well taken in a paradigm of jigs and reels…I get that.

Thanks for input, Trevor.

Adding this later: it seems that I stumbled into one of those proletariat/bourgeiosie/aristocrat/Republican things. Traditional means just that; the combined experiences and practices of a given group of people. It’s never just as simple as playing music, whether its “correct” Early Music practice, ornaments on Bach etc etc. People get clannish, hierarchical and start drawing lines of definition. We celebrate its greatness and suffer by its limits. And the very best practitioners seem to be the only ones allowed to CHANGE it (to the grunts and groans of the comfortably entrenched).

The only point I would make (in bothering to present an opposite view) is that Traditional proletariat institutions can sometimes be trumped by their own exclusivity.An example: nothing would seem as proletarian as American Bluegrass Music, music of the hill-folk of Appalachia. Yet it was mandated by Bill Monroe (one of its founders) for years and years that women could NOT play bluegrass. And there are still many people who do not accept women players…It doesn’t fit into a neat Socialist or other kind of dynamic profile, that’s for certain. But it is (WAS) Traditional.What a loss TO THE PEOPLE if we did not have some of the very fine women players, in both Celtic and Bluegrass music.


I identify with OCarolan, Bach and any other working musician who wanted to stay fed.Heck, OCarolan was blind so he couldn;t do much else. Bach was a CHRISTIAN, first and foremost,not an aristocratic toady, even though he worked for aristocrats at times. We study in Music History that Beethoven was among the first truly self-employed musicians who didn;t kiss royal ass.Last time I checked, OCarolan was way before him and its unfortunate if people are holding him to some non-Republican or Anglo-submitting position. With the more than a millenium of pain the Irish have suffered by Brit aristocrats, maybe its just too much to ask for his melodies to be accepted given that he wrote for-pay tributes(the Planxties) to the lords and ladies…

But why are they included in Oneill’s Collections if they were not being played by Traditional players? Maybe they were being played in Chicago but not Dublin?

As for quality of music and the argument that Traditional jigs and reels are better, I think his music is quite fine by any standard and as I pointed out before, it has infiltrated the traditional corpus in disguise. I’m not sure where musical opinion and social opinions divide in this issue though. Based on the nature of this argument, I think its more social…

Its otherwise senseless for ME to argue about whether this music should be played in sessions and I want to make that clear. I’m not shooting any messengers and I don;t want to discourage finding out what people really do because I am the newcomer. I have learned from this thread today to save my Carolan for my group and not expect to play or hear it in a Traditional-style session. Until (or if) the Tradition changes.

[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-04-08 19:31 ]

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David -
No offense, but you’re going to be avoiding a lot of sessions if you only want to go to those that gladly welcome O’Carolan tunes. If you have local sessions where his tunes are played often then more power to you. My comments were simply a reflection of what I’ve experienced here in Boston as well as in Ireland.
All the best,
Chris

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Around here it ain’t Irish unless it’s “Whiskey in the Jar!” 'Scuse me while I go and punch the speedbag! ARGH!

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On 2002-04-08 16:52, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
David -
No offense, but you’re going to be avoiding a lot of sessions…

Of course no offense taken Chris :slight_smile: . But re: your statement above, I think it could likewise be said that if one was going to avoid sessions that welcomed O’Carolan tunes that person would be avoiding “a lot of sessions” as well. Like you I am only going from my own personal experience both here and in Ireland. A good session will evolve around the likes and dislikes of the core group of musicians in attendance. Which is why I don’t particularly like “led” sessions. They certainly do have their positive points but I am not real keen on having some gob-shite impose their sense of musical aesthetics on a whole group of musicians that I am a part of.

Cheers,
David

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Fair play to ya Dave!
Best,
Chris

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I have to agree with Trevor’s experience. In the two open Houston sessions, O’Carolan tunes are treated much more like airs: They’re welcomed when played in moderation.
On any given session night you might hear one or two O’Carolan tunes..perhaps Planxties Hewlett, Irwin, or Fanny Power. Less common are tunes like George Brabazon or Tabhair Dom Do Lamh. It makes for a refreshing change, and I welcome the occasional O’Carolan tune.

That said, O’Carolan tunes are really a different STYLE of music than traditional irish folk. They rarely follow the melodic structure one comes to expect with IrTrad tunes. They generally have a more ‘chamber music’ feel to them, at least to me. This doesn’t make them better or worse (in my opinion)..but definitely different. Others may have different opinions on the appropriateness of this style in an IrTrad session. Since the Houston sessions are easily 90+ percent gearted toward jigs and reels, that leaves little room for other styles, such as songs, waltzes and the like. Your mileage may vary with different sessions in different places.

Greg

[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-04-08 22:20 ]

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On 2002-04-08 14:57, Feadan wrote:

On 2002-04-08 14:35, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
I’m afraid to say it, but O’Carolan tunes are generally not played at sessions.

O’Carolan tunes have always been welcome at sessions that I have frequented. I think that if I knew ahead of time that folks at a given session were too opinionated or stuck up to play 'em then that would be a session I would avoid.

Cheers,
David

Nice for you that you have that option David, unfortunately many people don’t have the luxury of multiple sessions in their area to choose from - for them it’s “Play what’s on the list or don’t play at all.”, in which case it helps to know that O’Carolan tunes aren’t always welcome.

I envy you folks who have sessions every week, I can’t even imagine…

Loren

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Gosh, Susan…things have gotten a little deep here. Hope it hasn’t scared you off. I agree that playing with other people can be very rewarding and scary at first.But I have improved tremendously oveer the past year by playing along with the jam and our Praise Team. In fact our director of the PT said the other night that he was just amazed at how I could play the notes with no real music in front of me. I told him I was rather amazed myself. I have not had the chance to play in a legitimate session…only the one I put together…but maybe somewhere down the line.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do.Gm

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On 2002-04-08 22:30, Loren wrote:
Nice for you that you have that option David, unfortunately many people don’t have the luxury of multiple sessions in their area to choose from - for them it’s “Play what’s on the list or don’t play at all.”, in which case it helps to know that O’Carolan tunes aren’t always welcome.

I envy you folks who have sessions every week, I can’t even imagine…

Loren

Actually, Loren, my choices are far less than when I was living in the other half of the state. My first year and a half here on the Cape the only session around was a led session. I went once and thereafter chose not to attend as it didn’t fit my musical needs. I was happier to hit the very occasional session when I had business back west which is a 2.5 hour road trip. So basically I have pretty much chosen to go with nothing for a year and a half. More recently another session has arisen that better suits my anarchistic tendencies :slight_smile: . Not that I am complaining mind you but the choices are both a good 50 minute drive one way. It’s not “just down the road” like it used to be for me.
Regarding the fact that some turn their nose up to O’Carolan tunes, it is indeed good to know. This is a learning experience for me too. I have never encountered it myself but unlike Chris I do not (nor is the desire there to) go to a lot of “big city” (Boston) sessions. Back in my old stomping grounds where Bloomfield & JonM are there are three sessions a week to choose from. I have read more than once of your Florida session famine and my heart goes out to you.

Best,
David

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I have to admit to being somewhat frightened by some of the session stories told here - adding to my fears of making a fool of myself if I ever dared play with other folks, but there have also been lots of real encouraging words (as opposed to “discouraging words” which are never heard out here in the West) that have made me re-think things. I appreciate ALL the feedback and it’s been interesting to read the posts. I’ll be looking for the next session locally! Thanks all.
Susan

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There’s really no reason to be scared of playing in a session, that I can see. Sure, we may argue (debate, whatever) about them, but it’s very, very rare that a session will be unfriendly towards newcomers. Almost all the sessions I go to are very encouraging of new players, and the worst I’ve ever seen is indifference. If you’re courteous, there’ll be no problem, though there can be incidents with people who have no respect… (I remember an incident once involving an obnoxious, bad bones player, who insisted on sitting at the center of the session and playing constantly.)

I think probably the best way to get into playing at sessions would be to go to one of the huge ones you can find at many festivals. When you have a group of thirty people or so playing, it’s easy to be brave. No one can hear your mistakes, anyway, and it’s just so exhilarating to be in a room with so many great players. If such an opportunity presents itself, go for it.

Best wishes.

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Just checked the thread since a few hours ago and a lot more good stuff was said. But in addition to the serious concepts I learned two new words today:

Gob-shite and fecker!!!

HA!!!Is this the best Forum or what!!! Hope Dale Force One is listening, this is classic.Can we put these words on the main page like a department or something??? Or is that cussin’?

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I was also interested to learn that O’Carolan tunes are a no-no in many sessions. I have sometimes wondered why hornpipes are also discouraged, or at least not emphasized in session playing. Our local session has a website which mentions that hornpipes are not played. Are they considered beginners tunes - they are a great way to begin to feel the Irish rhythm? Or do they conjure up images of sailers in short blue jackets and funny caps?

Enquiring minds want to know.

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I,m with David on this one and although perceptions vary I have always considered O´carolyns music traditional and a joy to play at sessions.I,m not sure what the argument is about here but I am wary of sessions where any sort of censorship is imposed. Peace, Mike :slight_smile: