Here’s a question from a former Jazz Studies major…how similar is Irish music to jazz and blues? I’ve analyzed a few songs (not many, mind you) and noticed the familiar I-IV-I-V7-I form of jazz, and wondered if that’s the norm for Irish music. Is improvization done much in Irish music? I’ve listened to a bit, but have only recently been exposed to it, and I’ve never seen a live show or sat in on a session. Lemme know whatcha think.
Jim
Firstly I would like to put out a disclaimer that the below is only general… There are always exceptions to the rules and I’m commenting mostly on the differences between “Straight Ahead” Jazz and Irish/Scotish Trad…
That being said… I would say that the foundation of Jazz harmony is actually built off the ii V I progression. Also, even the most basic standards generally have different tonal centers (keys) unless your talking about a modal piece… But even then…
Also, the main emphasis in Jazz is improvising… Us Trad musicians tend to focus on improvising from the context of the melody via interpretation (both melodic and ornamental)… And then finding another tune to launch in seamlessly and thereby arranging tunes in “sets”… rather than playing the melody and then going straight into improv… again just a generalization…
Back to the issue of keys… Most trad tunes stay in one key… This is probably due to the limitations of certain trad instruments like the whistle & pipes and flute for that matter…
One thing thats been great for me in playing trad music with a Jazz Theory background is my ability to annalyze the tunes and being able to substitute chords or tweaking with the melody on the spot…
One thing that is great about Trad music is that it teaches you how to improv over chords whether you know it or not… If you annalyze most Trad tunes you’re bound to find the “melody” really being a bunch of arpeggios and scale sequences arranged artistically… THAT is what good Jazz improv is all about… I think that someone well versed in the language of Irish Trad would have a great foundation when getting into Jazz improv… I came from the other direction…
Well… I could go on as this subject is a passion of mine… But I need to figure out what tunes I’m going to teach tonight at the “learning” session I lead…
Maybe I’ll jump in a bit later… Any other thoughts guys & gals?
Peace,
Blayne
Mmmh… I am neither an expert in Jazz nor steeped in IrTrad. But I think that the idea of “chord progressions” is not within the concept of Irish music, be it in dance tunes or slow airs. Irish (dance) music is strictly melodic, more or less rooted in the old medieval modes. In that way it is very similar to modal jazz, where the soloist builds his playing on modal scales. As for improvsation, IrTrad is much mor similar to the delicate ornamenting and phrasing of Baroque music than the go-wild improvising in jazz. So, the bottom line is: In jazz you must know the “changes” to improvise. In IrTrad you must know the tune (and stick to it). Just my 2c
Christian
I think there is a lot of similarity in these three genres.All are rhythmically bonded and rely heavily on maintaining the groove and an emotional input that one doesnt usually associate with classical forms of music,Indian music being the exception. 
Peace,Mike
Just my opinion,
From my point of veiw as both a jazz musician, and a IrTrad musician they are very similar. I have played jazz melodies based off Traditional reels frequently when soloing. But I think the biggest proof for me has been my work with my Irish band. We have taken a few songs (mostly contemporary Irish, with that “Traditional feel”) and sort of jazzed them up. Songs like Go Move Shift, and Take Her in Your Arms worked really well. And other songs, like Gypsy Rover, can go over to blues with a little bit of tinkering.
I think the fact that these songs go over to jazz styles to easily shows how closely related they really are in some ways.
And I disagree with the remarks that Traditional Irish music doesn’t use chord progressions in the style. It is true that the melodic lines are far more important, but the chord progressions are still there, even if ignored. In fact, most types of embellishments, or varying from the written melody use the chord changes. If you didn’t follow them, what you played wouldn’t sound that great. When we played Taker Her in Your Arms, we inserted a solo chorous and it worked great (if anyone wants, I could upload a recording of it)
Seth
As a player both of whistle/flute/pipes and backup on octave mandolin, I can hopefully give some useful information here.
There are definitely common patterns for Irish backup, with some tunes staying with only one pattern while others switching between multiple patterns within the context of the tune.
In general, there are 3 primary modes:
Major: Using as you said, the I-IV-V major chords.
Examples: Merry Blacksmith, Kesh Jig
Mixolydian: Alternating between the I major and VII major:
Examples: Rakish Paddy, Banish Misfortune
Dorian: Alternating between the I minor and VII major, with occasional walks down to the VI major
Examples: Cooley’s, Pidgeon on the Gate
Occasionally you find a true Minor tune, but they aren’t that common.
An excellent reference book on the subject is:
“Celtic Backup for all Instruments” by Chris Smith, published by Mel Bay.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael,
This is exactly the kind of elaboration that keeps students from having to re-invent the wheels of music theory for themselves. Thanks so much for the simple progression/mode/tune examples. I’m going to order that book to share with the people I play with.
Lisa
I think there are a few misleading items in this thread. The tunes of Irish traditional music (jigs, reels, etc.) have chord progressions in that a sequence of chords (or more than one sequence) can be fitted to each tune. That doesn’t make it like jazz. American old-time music and bluegrass have chord progressions. So does Bach’s music. Many of the great vehicles for jazz improvisation were originally songs from Broadway shows or other popular songs. They were not intended to be jazz at all. If Irtrad didn’t have chord progressions there would be nothing for a guitar or bouzouki player to do. Some people would be glad of that. Jazz relies heavily on extended and alterted chords (7th, 9th, aug etc) but Irtrad does not although sus4 and sus2 chords are often appropriate.
Up until the 60s jazz almost always employed straight ahead four to the bar rhythm. Irtrad hardly ever uses this type of rhythm although some accompanists such as Willy Johnson and the late Tich (?) Richardson have used it. Maybe others do too in Ireland. There were occasionaly forays into other rhythms in jazz such as Take Five and some jazz waltzes. I’m at a loss to think of any 6/8 tunes in jazz but that doesn’t mean there weren’t any. The late Don Ellis pioneered very exotic rhythyms in jazz but they never really caught on. Such stuff as 17/19. I find four to the bar rhythm sort of annoying in trad music although some people use it pretty effectively.
But the real heart of jazz is improvisation. No matter how hard a band swings it won’t really be jazz unless there are improvised solos. The chord changes are the foundation upon which the solos are constructed. A jazz solo is not just little modifications of the original melody but a whole new melody composed on the spot by the soloist. Maybe some Irish musicians do this but if so, they have left the realm of traditional music.
Steve
First, I’m no expert with either genre.
However, for me, I see one major difference.
With jazz, often the melody is implied, in Irish Trad it always stated. In ITrad the melody may be ornamented but it is always clearly defined.
hi,and thanks to everyone who has contributed so far to what i think is a highly interesting thread! just a few random thoughts,hopefully not too far off topic. i enjoy all sorts of music, inc. jazz,blues and i trad,and i often think that the major similarity between ‘good’ jazz and i trad is that they both SWING!.as mr. ellington said “it don’t mean a thing…” also, perhaps on a mainly emotional level,i often hear a strong affinity between sean nos and the so called ‘primitive blues’,though i hardly need add that both are highly sophisticated musics.
a favourite album of mine is tommy potts’ ‘liffey banks’. i,ve read that tommy took considerable stick from some quarters for his interest in jazz(compare his fiddle to stephane grappelli or stuff smith for example)though i think of him as a quintessential irish musician! also consider that jazz really started as a folk form,and were it not for the invention of 20th century media,records etc. it may have largely remained a more ‘localised’ music(no i dont buy into the myth that jazz was formed fully fledged in the crescent city alone! ).irish/jazz crossover is another consideration- i think a fine example, off the top of my head is some of cormac breatnach’s playing-the album he made with martin dunlea ‘music for whistle and guitar’ is a gem!
hi,and thanks to everyone who has contributed so far to what i think is a highly interesting thread! just a few random thoughts,hopefully not too far off topic. i enjoy all sorts of music, inc. jazz,blues and i trad,and i often think that the major similarity between ‘good’ jazz and i trad is that they both SWING!.as mr. ellington said “it don’t mean a thing…” also, perhaps on a mainly emotional level,i often hear a strong affinity between sean nos and the so called ‘primitive blues’,though i hardly need add that both are highly sophisticated musics.
a favourite album of mine is tommy potts’ ‘liffey banks’. i,ve read that tommy took considerable stick from some quarters for his interest in jazz(compare his fiddle to stephane grappelli or stuff smith for example)though i think of him as a quintessential irish musician! also consider that jazz really started as a folk form,and were it not for the invention of 20th century media,records etc. it may have largely remained a more ‘localised’ music(no i dont buy into the myth that jazz was formed fully fledged in the crescent city alone! ).irish/jazz crossover is another consideration- i think a fine example, off the top of my head is some of cormac breatnach’s playing-the album he made with martin dunlea ‘music for whistle and guitar’ is a gem!
Wow! It’s wonderful to see so many views on the subject. I had been curious about how solos were handled in Irish Traditional music. Thankfully they’re very different from jazz…I’m a horrible jazz soloer! hehe
Though I would be curious to find out…anybody think a bit of jazz may have come from IrTrad? Jazz is a conglomeration of many different musical styles, blues being the most obvious. However, Chicago and New York were just as influencial in the development of jazz as New Orleans, and both of these cities had (and have) large Irish-American populations. Maybe it was picked up along the way? Just tossing more ideas into the discussion.
Jim
On 2002-04-24 17:12, Akuma12 wrote:
Jazz is a conglomeration of many different musical styles, blues being the most obvious. However, Chicago and New York were just as influencial in the development of jazz as New Orleans,
Jim
Although blues was certainly important in the formation of jazz, I think we tend to forget about the marching bands. This, after all, is where the musicians came across their trumpets, trombones etc. My impression is that the bands were pretty free wheeling.
Steve
Very interesting thread.
I agree with SteveK that the approach to melody, rhythm and harmony are all very different in jazz vs. Irtrad. In Irish, melody comes first and harmony follows (at a great distance,too), and in jazz, it’s the opposite. The melody is created and improvised out of the far more complex chords and progressions. Jazz is full of harmonic experimentation which doesn’t occur in Irish. However, it seems clear that American music was highly influenced by European music, including Irish, as well as by African music. The early blues lyrics are full of references to English and Irish ballads, for example, and the blues were (and continue to be) a major influence in the development of jazz. We are used to the idea that all of Jazz’s rhythmic ideas originated in Africa, but one theorist suggested that the Polka had an equal influence on the swing rhythms of Jazz. I don’t know if there is any evidence to back this up, but I remember how astonished I was when I realized that eighth notes in reels and hornpipes did’nt mean straight eighth notes.
For you folks who love both jazz and Irish music, have you heard Keith Jarrett play “My Wild Irish Rose” on his album “The Melody at Night with You”? Unbelievable! Of course he could probably make anything sound good! He manages to take this old overplayed song and come up with a fresh interpretation using some very lovely jazz chords to accompany the old melody. The album is not a typical jazz album. It’s more of a blending of some beautiful melodies such as “Shenandoah” with some equally beautiful modern jazz harmony.
As far as the main arguments in this thread let me state my thoughts this way. Imagine you are watching a program about Ireland on TV and a beautiful slow Air is being played on a whistle in the background as they show the misty Irish coast. Without doubt it captures the essence of Ireland and Irish music but not a single chord is played or needed! That’s not to say that chords can’t be added to enhance the music. They just aren’t essential to it. On the other hand it would be unusual for a solo instrument to play an entire jazz piece unless it could add harmony as could a piano or guitar. (Maybe a sax solo by John Coltrane or Paul Desmond would make me eat my words!) So I think Irish traditional and Jazz are basically different in that one is essentially melodic and the other is rooted in harmony. Certainly rhythm is very important to both genres. I can’t say much about the newer modal jazz started by Miles Davis and Bill Evans with the appearance of the “Kind of Blue” album. I’m still living in the II,V,I era!
Best wishes, Tom