Any readers of Irish History here?
I have read a lot of history but my formal education was mostly British History which, strangely, only touched on Ireland incidentally. Strange.
I do not have a good Irish History book. I am having arguments with an Irish person who keeps saying things about Irish History that I feel must be a little exaggerated.
Can anyone recommend to me a good Irish History book written by
an Irish person who is
a woman
of Catholic background, and hails from
the Republic ?
I do not want my opponent to be saying,
“Ahh, there you go then Talasiga, that was written by a man/ a traitor from Belfast / a Protestant / a diasporic” and the like. Red headed opponents tend to argue like this.
My first issue is that the Norman Lords from England only made inroads into Ireland with the complicity of certain indigenous Irish Lords. Opponent is saying the Irish had nothing to do with it. I cannot recall where I got my information from because I have been reading things here and there for many a year. It is the way of history that it takes 2 to tango.
Anyway, I look forward to your assistance.
No set ups please …
There’s what seems to be a decent overview of the period you’re referring to in Wikipedia online. Can’t address it’s veracity and it’s no doubt not as thorough as you’re looking for, but a start if you haven’t yet checked it out.
I know the feeling, Talasiga. But for me it was trying to get a history book that said anything sensible to explain about Norn Iron. There were a heap of history books about Ireland, but they almost seemed to be about a different country.
I found one. But it doesn’t fit your remit.
Better to get two books, as historians don’t always (ever?) agree.
My reference is Jonathan Bardon: a history of Ulster.
The story he gives is that
a) Some camp follower of Henry II leaned on the Pope, who granted Henry ownership of Ireland, on the basis that the Pope had jurisdiction over “all islands”. Henry briefly went over to Ireland, but it isn’t at all clear how much he did. He may have extended the Pale, or simply done a bit of politicking.
b) Some years later John de Courcey suddeny(!) appeared in Carrickfergus with a fully-fledged Motte and Bailey Castle and declared himself “Warlord of Ulster”. Despite the fact that he had other matters to deal with, John Lackland raised an army, landed at Waterford (if I remember rightly) and fought his way north, subduing the Irish as he went. Norman Cavalry used the kite-shaped shields, which protected their legs. Irish Cavalry were still using rounded shields, so were at a serious disadvantage. Eventually Lackland arrived at Carrickfergus and made John de Courcey swear fealty to him.
Without reference to the book, I’d say it is human nature that some lords would side with the English, in their own interests. The Plantagenets were a wily lot who were likely to frame up a bunch of laws to look plausible, but would eventually act to draw all the power to them. Some things don’t change.
“Red-headed opponents tend to argue like this.” Those are not logical arguments and therefore not worthy of reply. I know. I have red hair.
I see where you are coming from, but you can’t win an argument with people who pipe up with such things.
I’ve been reading up my favourite source on the topic (and I found it was Hugh de Lacey who had replaced John de Courcy as “Earl of Ulster” by the time Lackland marched up there - sorry about that).
It all hinges on a feud between O’Rourke of Bréifne and Dermot MacMurrough of Leinster. Macmurrough had trading ties and diplomatic links with Henry II. He asked for help against O’Rourke. Henry invoked the “Laudabilitur” as I’ve mentioned, but didn’t actually stir himself. He did announce that his barons were free to lend a hand if they fancied. Dermot promised them grants of land, so, yeah, they fancied.
The trouble is that in the aristocratic circles there was a certain amount of intermarrying even at that juncture, so extricating who was “Irish” and who was “Norman” is by no means clear cut. You might think it was, but no it ain’t. And that’s is where arguing with your Rougine opponent is going to get nowhere.
But at any rate, the Norman invasion of Ireland was piecemeal, in the first instance. Later on it was more forceful, with Lackland and Richard II. But by that time there were “independant” Norman Barons in Ireland. Clouded? Confused? Misleading? Vexed? Hey, it’s Irish history!
The Normans didn’t go over just once, but several times. The Irish - actually, there was no such thing as “The Irish” - whoever the local Irish chief was at the time and place would swear fealty until the Normans’ backs were turned, then they would gladly attack all over again. This is chronicled in … um … begins with a B … not Bede … damn! Brain fart!
Also, a good author of such things is Peter Beresford Ellis.
I am researching the medieval Irish church, so some authors I have come across are:
Dianne Hall and Lisa Bitel are women authors who write about medieval Irish history, but they are not from Ireland. Bitel is American, and I highly recommend her books on religion and religious history.
A GREAT overview of the medieval Irish church with some discussion of the political situation is The Church in Medieval Ireland by John Watt (from England, but IMO very unbiased).
Don’t know if this helps, but good luck in your search.
Feadogin, your suggestion won’t do for my particular situation. However, for my personal erudition and pleasure, your recommendations are most appreciated. I will try and find these when I next go to the Big Smoke.
