You are right as rain there Gordon. I comepare it to sports cause Im an ex-jok. When I started doing martial arts I was 40 and wanted to use my body in a different way. I knew it would take quite some time to gain the flexability to realy have fun without herting myself. So the first year was the worst in that I was teaching my body to except a limitless attitude. It was fun to watch my progress and the work became fun because it was paying off. Some of the stretching I had to do was not worth getting mentaly involved with so I would just seperate my self from it. Like warming up the flute. I spent 10 years discovering the perfection of the human body. Now the flute is very much the same way. The first 5 months were pure hell. The only way I made it through was to seperate myself from the drugery of developing and Mbowsher. Now I cant put the damn things down. My goal now is to become a compitant player. Once I feel I am there, I think the real fun begins. I can hardly wait…
Tom
Well, gosh then, “No”.
M
Not sure what this means, Dix – are you saying, no it won’t help, or no, you don’t want to get better? If the latter, whatcha doin’ on a flute forum?
Gordon
I must not have made sense.
“No” simply means that, at least in my case, the mechanism of creating sound is too different between the two instruments. If I play my whistles for a day or two, I can guarantee myself at least some grief when I pick up my flute again. My emboucher really suffers, and my fingers are slow, most likely because of the difference between holding the two instruments. I know from experience that if I practice my flute even through the bad days, it only benefits me later on down the road. And most of the time, I do persevere, especially on those days when nothing seems to go right with my playing. I have noticed that if I do that, for some reason the next day is slightly better.
That being said, it doesn’t mean that I don’t still like, and derive lots of enjoyment, from tootling around on my whistles. I just don’t aspire to become as proficient at whistle as I do flute. Therefore, even though I enjoy whistling, I wouldn’t necessarily think that playing them enhances my flute playing in anything other than a superficial way. YMMV
Why do I hang out on the flute forum? 
To try to learn something from folks like you, Gordon!
Mary
I love that spelling. No kidding, now I finally know how you 'mericans pronounce that word. 
(on topic: whistle playing only helps me with the basic fingerings of tunes, but as this is the smallest problem I have on the flute, it doesn’t really help there.)
cheers,
Sonja
Amen to that.
Learn your instrument for sure but isn’t the real goal to play music? If I can sink into a tune on whistle that feel will transfer when I pick up a flute. Of course the same can be said for any instrument, bodhran, guitar, whatever. I can think of lots of older players who basically sound like crap on the flute but who are amazing musicians with incredible lift, drive and sensibility.
Don’t get hung up on the technical stuff. If your goal is make the music become alive you can focus on that at any level of instrument proficiency. Play the music and it’ll all work out.
Well, shoner, definitely the idea is to play music. And I agree, in its beauty, music isn’t something purely technical. But it takes technique to make an instrument (in this case, flute, lest we forget our main interest here ), sound musical. I think that music with rigid technique but no musicality is a soulless thing, but then, music without technique erases any chance for musicality.
The problem with what you are saying – and I don’t know that you are guilty of this as a musician personally, only guilty of perhaps passing on a misleading concept or philosophy to others – is that many feel that technique and “technical stuff” takes away from the musicality, and this is a dangerous assumption. Nothing sounds more musical than the flow of rich tones, the deliberate addition of interesting colors (in other words, ornaments, barks, yips and grunts should not be happy mistakes, but intentionally created by the player to make the music more interesting and – well – musical). On the other hand, nothing sounds less musical than weak tone, hurried rhythms, unintentional squawks, and tunes that disintegrate before completion.
Someone earlier in the thread (John maybe?) said that there are a few rare mortals among us that seem to defy the norm, that everything they touch sounds musical, but – rightly – he added that these are not the people to use as examples, as they are the exceptions to the rule. Most people need to work at their instruments (and I truly believe that even the extremely gifted, such as these few oddlings, do work hard, too – they just approach the work more naturally than the rest of us).
For the record, I think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with playing multiple instruments depending on your mood – this goes for musical styles as well. I play several instruments and several types of music. But, in order to do the flute, specifically, or Irish music on the flute in particular, I need to feel that I’m giving it what it needs to sound the best it can – for my self, first and foremost – and for any unsuspecting listener as well.
Oh, and Mary, now I understand your point completely, and agree with what you’ve said and meant. Sorry for the miscommunication.
Gordon
Yes I think the eventual goal is to play the music. However, I feel that unlike the whistle, the flute does require a lot more mastery before you achieve a skill level that can allow you to concentrate comfortably, and mainly on the music, due to many factors. I can sink into a tune on the whistle but when I change over to the flute, I can tell you a definite no, that the feel is different. I have to work on keeping a decent tone, the method of articulation is different too. All these physical barriers get in the way of me producing what music I have in my head. It simply does not translate over like I would wish it would.
Why do I keep up with it then? Because I think the rewards of rewiring myself to play the flute will be greater in the long run. Yet, it is definitely easier and more intuitive to concentrate on the aspects of good music on the whistle than it is on the flute, and I worded my replies carefully so that it would not imply otherwise.
I also do not feel that technicality (which I feel, encompases the control of your instrument) is always, a definite hinderance to the music, although it sometimes can be the case. On the contrary, your artistic decisions are no longer limited by physical constraints with increased technicality and control. Whether your technicality is the servant to your ego or the music is another matter.
The geezers were cited as an example, as musicians who are low on technicality and high on the musicality. In this case I think the technical control the geezer have over their instruments has been totally underated. For they have enough mastery over their instrument so as to bring out the music as they have it in their minds - that same music that is with incredible rhythmic lift and drive. That is no mean feat by itself, from my perspective.
Hmm I didnt realise that I was writing my post at the time Gordon posted.. dont want to seem like I was agreeing with everything he was saying
I would agree totally with this statement. Their minds, flutes, fingers are completely in sync.
That is where I want to be someday. After years and years of practice…
Mary
Oh boy here is on of my pet pieves. Technique. Again let me refer to Martial arts. As an ex instructor my most chalenging task was to put across the importance of technique. It can be difficult to convey to the student until they injure themselves while trying some advanced movements. Or when taking part in a turnament(ours were always full contact) and getting the poop kicked out of them.
I have found the Irish flute to be the most chalanging instrument I have ever taken on. I see little relationship between it and the whistle, except for the number of holes in the tube. I have had to emerse myself in the flute to make any headway at all. I try to listen to the geezer mp3`s everyday. Not just for the music but for the individual voices, the potential of the flute to express ones own feelings. This, in my humble opinion, is the magic of the flute. But before this potential can be realized one must get a handle on the technical side of the instrument. And believe it or not this can be fun. Oh and by the way, I think that flute playing can improve your whistle playing, but not the other way round.
Tom
I humbly submit that the best thing for a flutist about playing the whistle is to be able to forget the technique for a while and concentrate on the music. I think the whistle is great for learning tunes, and it’s great for getting the general feel of Irish music, without having to learn all than plus flute technique at the same time.
Being newer to all this, I have to be even humbler 
. But I would agree with the above, at least in my case. Coming from a Boehm flute, I first got a low G whistle to see if I could do the whole keyless thing. After working on that for maybe a year, I took the dive to the keyless flute. At times, when I’m trying to get the feel for a tune or work some details of a tune, I find that I can simplify things for my little brain by using the low G whistle; not having to think of the extra things that proper flute playing entails helps me in these cases. I’ve done a fair amount of dog training using positive reinforcement techniques, and one of the basic principles is that you don’t add all the variables at once; you concentrate on one thing at a time, add variables incrementally. A human example:1) try walking across a room; 2)then walk across the room and chew gum at the same time; 3)walk across room, chew gum, and rub your tummy… o.k., I’ll hush up… just don’t bite 
At this point, we actually all seem to be on the same page (or 3) here. What’s now happening is that words like technique are being bent around to mean several things (which it does), and we’re all ending up correct, point by point. Technique does not always mean the slick and flawless execution of every roll or cran; sometimes it’s just the ability to know the instrument thoroughly, to play the music of choice with convincing authority; this is what the so-called geezers do, and most of the hotter, faster pups with the most expensive flutes can’t even begin to approach this. Glauber is certainly right as far as an Irish feel and the absorption of the tunes is concerned, which is why pretty much all the old geezers, and young, started out on the whistle; basics, like rhythm and the tunes, and the variations, become ingrained, and then when the flute is mastered, the tunes and rhythms are there as support.
Those of us that started Irish music, and flute in general, as adults, will probably want to work on the flute mostly, and conquer these things simultaneously. I found working on the D whistle for tunes irritating, as I have a lower tolerance for the high pitch (too many years on an electric guitar), and moreover, I want to hear the deeper, fuller tones of the flute boost the power of the tune.
Regarding the “geezers” technique, I absolutely think they are underated (as a whole); if you’ve ever played a session or two with any of them that might still out and about, you are absolutely amazed at the fluidity, the groove, the variations, the catalog of material and just the overall grasp of the music which so many younger, faster, how-many-rolls-per-measure gunslingers cannot even begin to approach. I studied with one for almost a year – there were no pretentions, no need to show off, no fear to sound like crap on a bad day, but I can still set a metronome to the kitchen recordings he made for me on a weekly basis, tune after tune, they are that dead-on.
Man, and I swore that I wasn’t gonna add anything else, after Eldarion agreed with everything I said earlier!
Gordon
Errmm… no I didn’t! scans Gordon’s posts for something to disagree on
Actually, the first part is one of the reasons that I am still pursuing whistle probably more than flute, and also one reason that I switch to whistle on bad flute days. Another reason is that I don’t feel the same as you regarding the whistle. I still love the little things, am still rapidly improving, and don’t think I’ll ever abandon it. But with each passing week or month, I’m getting ever closer to a good flute day being more rewarding than a good whistle day.
Yeah, Gordon, you make good points. I think I’m talking about a matter of rate of improvement as opposed to lack of improvement. I mean that it’s ok with me if I don’t improve really quickly. In 10 years, I’ll still enjoy it and I’ll be better than I am now, and four years ago I was a beginner and now I am intermediate. Working hard to get good at something is totally a good thing, but it’s hard to do without positive feedback from the instrument. I have not encountered this (lack of positive feedback) with the flute (but I sure did with the fiddle).
I do think the whistle is excellent for learning the basic fingering of a new tune.
Charlie, those are great reasons to play whistle. My only disagreement was that, physically, to learn flute properly, their similarities are pretty superficial. Still, in terms of playing and learning Irish music, as opposed to any single instrument, the simplicity of the whistle can’t be beat.
Jessie, I never doubted that you, in reality, take playing music, and flute, pretty seriously; enjoying what you’re doing is requisite, and you seem to have that in spades. Playing music in any case, to my mind, is not a contest.
All the best,
Gordon