http://www.musictrader.com/rudallrose.html.
Bumped into Cathal McConnell yesterday in the Blondes in Milltown and he gave me his Rudall & Rose to look at when I asked about the serial number. Looks like Cathals’ Rudall could have been made in 1842
not at all.
this from ~18 years of cataloging existing Rudalls worldwide from every collection (private & public), exhibition and auction dating to 1960.
Even the great Langwill’s index is wrong. I’ve submitted to the publisher several corrections for the errors, including proof of same.
From my understanding I believe that we can only use a number of events in the Rudall and Rose (and Carte) period as an indicator of manufacturing dates for flutes not listed in the Horniman records.
i.e. The arrival at 7 Tavistock Street (1822),
to No.15 Piazza , Covent Garden (1825)
to 1 Tavistock Street (1838)
to 38 Southampton Street, Strand (1847)
to 100 New Bond Street (1852)
to 20 Charing Cross (1854)
then eventually 23 Berners Street.(1878)
Perhaps the introduction of the Patent head can also give a “not before date” for a head joint and the introduction of the four petal stamp is another.
All my dates listed are based on those given by Robert Bigio in his book “R, R & C”
From my own personal experience I know that serial numbers do not necessarily run chronologically. My Rudall and Rose #3632 is stamped with the 15 Piazza address and yet I recall there is a flute listed in one of the museums with a lower serial number but the 1 Tavistock address.
As to whether the Music Trader list is accurate or not I would be very interested as to where the information was gleaned to be able to list the numbers of flutes made each year, unless of course they have access to the records which Robert Bigio says have disappeared!
Cheers
Martin Duckworth
Thanks for that Martin and David. Cathal’s Rudall is no. 4611 and has the Tavistock address. I wonder what happened to the records were they destroyed of taken by an employee?
Based on the information I listed earlier it would suggest that a Rudall and Rose flute with a serial no. of 4611 and an address of (No.1) Tavistock Street was produced somewhere during the period 1838 to 1857. I am not aware of any other reliable documentation that would allow you to be more specific than that.
Perhaps David Migoya would be able to tell us the earliest and latest recorded serial numbers produced at this address and from that we could loosely suggest a possible range of dates but it would only be + or - 3 or 4 years.
Martin Duckworth
be happy to. i’ll be at the home laptop this evening, where my research/database resides.
There are a few indicators that help us narrow the serial numbers and dates more closely than is offered on many websites.
particularly the advertisements of the firm in the old periodicals help give us indicators.
I’ve posited many theories over the years on the cross-over addresses (how an older serial number can have an earlier address), mostly that the flutes are likely stamped at manufacture, but the serial number placed at sale.
Typically the cross-over of addresses occurs for a short time after the address does change, suggesting there are flutes of the previous address remaining in inventory and brought to the new location.
I have long believed the quattrefoil mark (four-petal) and the in-lid certificates came at the same time as part of their effort to stop the mismarked flutes apparently around the market, though the stamp appears on the flutes later than the certificates in the lids. Why? I believe b/c the signed certificates could be placed into flute cases immediately while the inventory of old stamped flutes w/o quattrefoil remained to be moved along first.
There’s little doubt that the gents indeed did sign the certificates in bulk. This is suggested by several Pratten certificates that were signed by the man himself, yet the date on the certificate is after his death! Makes you wonder whether RSP actually did test and ensure that very flute or not. lol
Doesn’t Robert Bigio have the original ledger from R&R and RC?
Regarding earlier Rudall serial nummers, this from Jem on 6/7/2010
“The earlier (pre 1862?) Rudall & Rose and Rudall Rose & Carte records do not survive - I was told by Paul Davis that they were destroyed in a fire (at B&H’s warehouse in the WW2 Blitz??? - not sure about this.) - and in any case we don’t know at what point they started keeping records, though it would seem likely it would have been at least soon after the inception of their use of serial numbers. The loss of these earlier records is why it is not possible to precisely date any particular serial number before the ones included in the surviving work/stockbooks. We can only estimate to +/- a year or so based on anchor points such as the known (approximate or exact) dates of occupancy of recorded addresses and versions of the firm’s name as stamped on the flutes, and presumed average production rates.”
I agree.
Amassing the evidence gives a pretty good indicator – with some margin for error, which is all we have to ride on.
There are other indicators out there that help, not the least of which are some custom RRs that were given to certain people at certain times and certain events that are marked on the flutes. (engraved cartouche for instance).
advertisements help, as do testimonials, letters and books of the period.
Thanks for dredging up that old post of mine, Steampacket. I knew I’d written something of the kind but haven’t had time the last few days to do anything about contributing here, either freshly written or pulled out of the archives.
One occasional source of approximate dating of Rudall flutes from earlier than the extant company records is that some of the lid certificates are dated. I’m in work at present, but at home I have a note I made of one I saw via Chris Wilkes. I’ll add the info later. Given the certificates may have been batch signed that’s still not 100% clear evidence, but as David says, it all adds to the picture.
Addendum: picked up the info during a tea-break. Chris showed me photos of R&R #5384 in its case with appropriately numbered certificate dated 1848.
Terry’s interpolation graph of known dates/numbers would give a pretty reasonable estimate I’d have thought
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/conclusions.html