Intersting about that point is that while about half the fluteplayers I looked at use something other than what is called ‘piper’s grip’ here. A majority the fingers of the right hand straight(while the left hand varies more widely) . While I don’t claim to know what is best (although I think moving a straight finger off a flute/chanter is a more effective and efficient movement) Grey’s advice seems somewhat at odds with what I see around me.
A typical example :
I went from piper’s to standard and back to piper’s. It’s far easier to get my hands to relax that way, but that’s probably because I have small hands. The standard grip on the left hand wound up generating a big knot on the ring finger’s tendon that runs under the palm. Now it’s almost gone. For me, ornamentaion control and crispness are better this way, too.
Ultimately, as so many have said here, one needs to take a cool, dispassionate look at what works best for one. All grip methods and their variations mean you make some kind of compromise in any case. The fluteplayer needs to decide which compromises s/he’s willing to make.
OK, I’m confused and am probably confusing others.
When I play lower whistles, I don’t
use the finger pads of the distal segment of
my fingers. Instead, I use the underside
of the middle segment. This helps make
the stretch easier and makes the angle of
my wrists less radical. I called that
Piper’s Grip, perhaps mistakenly.
When I began playing flutes, I used something
else on my left hand–the position of the
fellow in your picture, I think.
The flute is balanced at the base of my index
finger, the fingers are arched.
However I transferred to the flute my right
hand position on the low whistle. So I
considered this Piper’s Grip on my
right hand, as did others here.
Grey told me to use the fingerpad
under the distal segment of the
relevant fingers of my rt hand, not the middle
segment. I now look not terribly different
from the picture–though I can’t see
the right hand very clearly. My fingers
aren’t extended over the far
side of the flute.
My right hand fingers are straight, not
curved, rather like a pretty standard
way of positioning the fingers
on a soprano whistle.
The right hand shift I have in mind is from middle
to distal segments.
I also use the grip in Pete Laben’s picture (I’m not sure what its called and even if a name is important). I do notice, however, in the winter when my hands are somewhat dryer than in the summer, I need to apply some sort of cream on my right hand fingers as the hole coverage is not as secure as when in more humid weather.
Skip Healy was adament that I use the standard grip on both hands but I could not do so comfortably. Especially on the Healy flute where the R3 hole is slightly extended toward the bottom of the flute. My fingers are long and sometimes, after playing for a while, I have a tendance to cover the right hand holes more at the joint between the first and second knuckle. This may be the problem I have covering the holes tightly.
BillG
it is a bit confusing that there are (at least?) two components to what i’ve heard decribed as piper’s grip: the left hand’s forward wrist position, and the use of the middle finger pads on some fingers. these are somewhat independant elements.
My right hand fingers are straight, not
curved, rather like a pretty standard
way of positioning the fingers
on a soprano whistle.
jim- how long is your index finger relative to the ring & middle fingers? most men have a somewhat shorter index finger compared to the ring finger. consequently i’ve seen the middle finger slightly bent to make its end pad inline with the other two fingers.
fwiw /dan
My grip (L & R hands) is almost identical to that in Peter’s picture. That’s what I would call a “normal” or “traditional” grip.
I do have to echo problems with B rolls and taps with this grip. That problem is improving from 25% to 75% success in rolling or tapping B.
Cheers,
Aaron
I’m as most men, on your description.
If I were using my right pinky down to stabilze
the flute I would bend my fingers.
I’ve got my pinky free and I’m pressing
with my thumb on the flute’s back, so
my hand is a bit further away.
My fingers extend just over the
holes, most especially the middle finger.
This whole thing is beginning to sound a little obsessive to me, and I should know, because I come from a long line of people suffering from OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder).
So, let’s simplify things alltogether: finger the flute however it feels OK to you. Rather than getting hung up on whether or not you are fingering the flute correctly, think about what you could be saying with the flute. What do you want to communicate? My answer to that question is that I want to compose a waltz this is so beautiful that anyone hearing it will want to hold their partner and dance until the musicians are totally exhausted. That tune is close, and I am working on it. I hope that you are on the dance floor with your sweetheart when the musicians strike it up for the first time.
you go Doug! we’re all ready for tunes like that!
forgive some “old farts” exploring the twiddly bits of this all too fascinating craft. for my part, i’m genuinely interested in the variety of human experience we discover together here. i’m honored by the contributions of all the wonderful folks that hang out here. heya!
enjoy! /dan
ps- my middle finger bends about 45 degrees to bring it inline with the other two. 
To clarify, I would interpret ‘piper’s grip’ as playing with the fingers streched like this left handed gentleman’s top hand (allthough he seems to use the fingertips more than I would), or the right hand of the picture in the previous post (using the middle segment of the fingers, for most holes at least). I have no trouble or strain on the hand or wrist playing a and b rolls with the top hand in this position.
On the other end of the spectrum I would think of players playing with their fingertips, sometimes with the fingers not straight with the lower hand fingers curved as well, like for example Mick Hand in the picture below:
Great pictures.
i also exchange my grip from clasic to pipers grip. i am almost 2 m tall, big hands, and after struggle with clasic grip for few years,when i saw eamonn de barra and maria rafferty in live, i was converted immidiatelly.my opinion is that with pipers grip rolls on a and b are more fluid and crisp, and also cuts on these notes. you must hear maria rafferty cuts!
also,think that people with big hands find that grip more faster and natural than clasic grip, because i found my fingers cramped alot with clasic grip.
i am agree that at first moment you will have some problems with flute stability ,but after a while you will find a proper place foryour lh thumb …
and of course ,problem with b flat key, but who care for bflat?
marin
Hi folks,
I’ll start by saying that I’ve been playing flute for all of about 1 month, and started playing piper’s grip, from my familiarity with low whistles. Up until tonight, I’ve had some issues with it, like the flute rolling on me, so my embouchure wasn’t the steadiest, and also hitting the T3 hole with my ring finger was not always on target and seemed to be hard to feel its location.
I was using the 3 point hold-the two thumbs opposing each other on either side of the flute, and the chin as the contact points. My thumbs would get tired of the pressure after not a long time, even when I relaxed consciously. And since I have some wrist problems and mild arthritis in my fingers, I just automatically went to piper’s because it felt natural with minimal strain.
I just spent about and hour in front of the computer reading this post, and trying the fingertip grip on both hands. I ended up playing the best I have yet, and my embouchure was solid too. I was moving along at a good clip for me, and I was happy about it.
I found that if I went back to the piper’s grip for my lower hand, there was less strain, and the upper hand in the standard grip felt pretty comfortable too, and my embouchure was still very steady. Now my lower hand thumb had less pressure on it from the support of my upper hand at the base of my index finger, and now my upper hand thumb was free to float, or rest on the flute if I needed some more stability.
I also went back and tried the full piper’s grip a couple of times to see the difference, and found it not as good for me as the modified grip of just the lower hand using pipers.
I don’t know if it’s my imagination, but since I was trying to be quiet for my neighbor’s sake (and my wife who was napping), my embouchure was pretty easy too. I think the flute being more steady had helped greatly with this too.
I am glad I got Doug Tipple’s 3 piece flute, which not only sounds great, but because there is a joint between the upper and lower finger holes, it made it easy to experiment with the ergonomics. As I have it now, the holes are inline, and just the headjoint is angled towards me. But it is nice to have that option of giving a twist to have the holes in a different position. And it’s a great sounding flute too, as even Michael Eskin and many others have commented about. All in all, a great start; this forum and a Tipple flute!
Thanks for this topic, and all your input, it’s made a difference in my playing already!
first, i am completely in agreement w/ “do what’s comfortable and works for you”. it is possible though, to execute piper’s grip without undue pressure by positioning the thumbs so that they support the flute underneath at an angle instead of gripping the flute from the sides. the only pressure this way is the weight of the flute itself, which is minimal.
here’s a pic:
note that none of the fingers other than the thumbs are on the flute. while this is a bit wobbly at first, it feels quite natural after a time and encourages an easy, gentle touch when closing toneholes. any wobble can be eliminated by lightly touching the right hand pinky to the flute (or Eb key), though this isn’t absolutely necessary. it does help to have a flute with a left/right body joint so you can angle the hands independantly.
fwiw /dan
Hey Dan,
Thanks for the great picture, it shows exactly what you’re talking about! I tried it, and seems to be less stress, you’re right, but it still doesn’t work as well for me.
Every time I shift back over to the standard grip up top, and keep the piper’s below, it just sets it up for me, and I don’t fumble at all with the embouchure, and there’s even less stress on MY hands/wrists. So, for now, I think I’ve found that magic groove for me.
The only place I feel restricted with this grip is the index finger on the top hole, with a little less freedom of movement than in piper’s, because the flute is resting on the base of that finger, but I figure that it should feel more natural with practice.
I can’t wait to try it tomorrow when everyone is away at work and see if I still can play full throttle as easily as I can play quietly now.
So, thanks for the input, and who knows, after I have played awhile, I might find full piper’s to be better for me, but for now, I will keep what seems to work the best. Up until tonight, my progress was minimal, and now I feel I have made the leap across the chasm!
very cool Barry! i’m glad you’ve found what is working for you. go with that feeling of rightness.
enjoy! /dan
Curious: Can one use this grip on a
keyed flute with a Bb key? The question was raised in
the post that started this thread.
Looking at that post, by the way,
my impression is that this question was never
answered:
My first question is: does the left thumb play little or no role in stabilizing the flute? The flute has a tendency to roll towards me, even though I angle my wrist so that the base of right index finger is almost flat. And if I push with my lips, after a while, my lips feel like they’re being crushed and start to cramp up.
The answer is that the left thumb indeed plays little or no
role in stabilizing the flute in standard grip. You can take it off the
flute, if you want.
which “this grip”? if my flavor of piper’s, i’m keyless & clueless, really. from what i’ve read, no. that’s a clear requirement for some folks, i know.
enjoy! /dan
Bang, I notice that you were fortunate to get one of those fine flute beards! Very nice!
I balance the flute between the joint of the left index finger (pushes in), my chin (pushes out, and it’s not my lip, but right under it), and the thumb of the right hand (pushes out). It’s good in that the flute doesn’t roll around and it’s comfortable. I don’t have pain in my thumb, which I did before adopting this method. The left fingers are sideways in Rockstro style.
The thumb on the right does not grip, either–it just stays straight with the tip pushing against the flute body. The fingers are straight on.
That’s on a CB ergonomic Rudall. With a cylindrical bamboo, I have to use piper grip on the right with the whole hand angled. Still, there are those three points that keep the balance.
Finding those three points and getting them to work together was the key for me. I haven’t had hand pain since and the flute is stable.
I’d like to say this is exactly like Grey Larsen’s recommendation, but if I went back and looked at the book I’m sure I’ll find that I’m not following it in some respect.
Take this with a grain of salt . . . it’s not like I can play the thing.
nah! i’m afraid it’s just one of those cheap imported copies. 
interesting that both grip styles have essentially three points of support.
enjoy! /dan