Roll Over, Bloomfield

Recently I had the great pleasure of taking a private whistle lesson with Bill Ochs in New York. Pleasure, that is, if you consider facing your dirtly little whistle secrets pleasurable. The short and long of it is: my rolls stink. (That was a pun, in case you didn’t notice.)

Bill is a great guy and terrific teacher and the experience couldn’t have been nicer. Now, several therapy sessions later, I am willing to share with you some of the great pointers he gave me. All this has my gloss on it and don’t go crying to Bill if they laugh at you in Doolin should you be reckless enough to take any of the following well-meaning and uninformed advice to heart.

The first and most important thing is to slow down. Surprise, surprise. Bill told me anecdotes of how the old teachers, like Martin Mulvilhil (iirc) who taught Eileen Ivers, would beat their pupils if they played fast. If you’re like me, you’ve heard this a million times and ignored it just as often. Why I mention it again is that it matters for learning rolls. Every place that I’ve seen discusses rolls as “three notes separated by a cut and a tap”. I used to treat that as interesting and extraneous historical background information and set out to learn The Roll as a single ornament. I didn’t think of it as three notes, but as one roll. That means that I was only able to produce something resemling a roll at a certain speed, flicking the propper fingers in the propper sequence.

And yes, it also said everywhere that you have to do it slowly before you bring your rolls up to speed. I tried. But I guess the three minutes of doing a roll slowly wasn’t quite enough. (Public confession is such a liberating experience.)

Thinking about Bill’s lessons and their obvious resemblance to Brother Steve’s Dah-Blah-Blah method, I realize now that I really have to play note-cut-note-tap-note. It is the only way that I ever will get rhythm to my rolls. I have slowed down, boy, have I slowed down. I mean, forget Feelin’ Groovy, I am practically counting eigth-notes on the jigs and making sure I hear each one on the beat with only blips between them. (This incidentally also addresses my problem of making the tap part sound too long, like a note stuck in there.)

So I am cleaning up my rolls. The B-roll is hard, but G and A are coming along. Playing the B-part of the Blarney Pilgrim, which has a B-roll quickly followed by a G-roll, it is a delight to notice the difference and to feel the rhythm on the G-roll. The whole ornament feels slower, more solid, more satisfying.

Here is another great piece of advice from Bill: If you are rolling over, relearning those pesky things, do it in a new tune. I miss-learned my rolls with the poor Kesh Jig and it is ten times harder for me now to play a correct A-roll in the Kesh than it is in Banish Misfortune or other tunes I am learning these days. (I am going back to playing the Kesh sans rolls, as a fix, btw.) So turn a fresh page, learn a new tune and go note-cut-note-tap-note. Sloooowly.

I have vowed to reform my evil ways. Already I have glimpsed the light. I have started to play tunes in which rolls drive the rhythm rather than tear little holes in the rhythm. As a further remedial measure I have decided to work on my taps (grace notes below the note), something I never did much because I was happy to slur-tongue-tongue on the typical jig patterns like GEE BEE | GEE etc. Now I am learning Scatter the Mud and I am tapping away, never once tonguing. (Never use a tap on the beat. A note that’s on the beat should be cut.)

The great thing about the lesson with Bill was that although what I report here is all technical, it was really about the music. It was about Irish Traditional Music, and we spent a long time talking about what is good to listen to (if there is interest, I’ll repeat some of his recommendations here). He stressed the importance of going back to older, purer stuff. (Thanks, Peter L, for helping me along that road!)

Bill also stressed the importance of lilting/singing the tunes. You will not go much wrong if you try to play the tune on the whistle as you would lilt it. And, incidentally, it will slow you down to a healthy satisfying pace. This was great to hear for me, because I like to sing/lilt tunes I learn (in private).

I guess reading this must be a bit like listening to someone telling you that taking a cold shower every morning is great and actually quite enjoyable once you get used to it. But I can begin to feel the pay-off. It’s something of a struggle, yet I am sure it beats learning the fiddle. And I am remembering what Bill Ochs also told me: Practice doesn’t make perfect, it makes permanent. So I’d rather do it right, and slowly. Welcome to the wonderful world of Irish Traditional cold showers.


/bloomfield

[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-04-10 17:34 ]

Good, good advice!

I remember what it did to my flute playing when I made myself go back and learn to do rolls the right way. Trainwreck is too kind a word…it wasn’t pretty. But it was worth it.

One point:

“Never use a tap on the beat. A note that’s on the beat should be cut.”

Not always true. Listen to Conal O’Grada’s playing on whistle or flute. You can get a very dramatic effect by doing a tap on the beat after a descending figure. It has to be done lightning-fast to work, though, just a barely discernable flick of the finger.

–James
http://www.flutesite.com

Bloomfield, If you’re willing to share more tips, I’m all ears (eyes).
Tony

Thank you for your time in writing out your experience. I hope to someday get to sit down with some of the greats for a lesson but until then lesson hearsay is just as good!

I Second Tony.Keep talkin.

Bloomfield, thank you. This is exactly the type of technical information I can use right now and have no teacher to help me. It is nice to find someone at the same level of playing and of conceptualizing the music. Now how about you come to Texas and give a lesson or two… :wink:

Cheers, NancyF

I hate it when I think I need a teacher to play music that was learned best at the knees in pubs by lil Irish kids who grew up to be our musical heroes.

First let me say, Bloomfield, how very proud of you I am.

Secondly, let me respond to a rather serious issue I found in one of the other posts. (See quote above.) They actually permit little Irish kids to frequent pubs? For shame. That is hardly healthy.

Sigh. It’s been a rude week for Brother Steve. First I discover people get depressed when they visit my website.

Or like my good friend Bloomfield, they spend months extolling the virtues of dah-blah-blah and then go to another teacher and the penny drops. It must be what those canny gurus have been saying all along - you’re much more likely to take notice of a teacher’s advice when you’ve paid for it. :wink: (Only tugging your Thomas, Bloomfield. Obviously a lesson from a teacher is worth any number of hours spent at a web site.)

Now I find out from The Weekenders that people are getting confused. I’m not sure this will help but:

On 2002-04-10 19:09, The Weekenders wrote:
I am frankly confused because the roll instructional method from BSteve seems to end up with a coupla little blips. I keep thinking that my computer sound just isn;t getting the actually cut and tip pitches because I just heard blips.

You heard right. Do not adjust your set. Quote from the site:

What is a roll?

A roll is a type of ornament very characteristic of Irish music. It is often described as a note decorated first by a higher note and then a lower one. While this is accurate, I think it tends to mislead people. A roll is not at all like a turn or mordant used by classical or baroque musicians. The higher and lower “notes” used in the decoration are hardly notes at all - they are more like little blips in the sound.

After hearing that, I began to wonder if what I thought were triplet single notes were actually meteoric-speed rolls.

Maybe, maybe not. Can you tell me where you’re hearing these items?

I hate it when something simple becomes complicated and the inner voice says it shouldn’t be.

Amen.

I tried practicing long rolls but always including the fourth eighth note . In other words da-bla-bla note, da-bla-bla note.

Actually, if you really want to be confused, another way of playing long rolls would be to think of what you just said, only the other way around. Instead of dah-blah-blah, some players make a long roll sound like “daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah-bluuh-bluh”. But I think you should get dah-blah-blah happening before trying variations. It may be all you ever need…

When Brother Steve recommends dropping a triplet note and making a cut to achieve the triplet I was further confused. Why learn it at all?

This has nothing to do with rolls at all. The section you are referring to is designed to show you how misleading conventional triplet notation is in reels (and by triplet I mean the 3-into-the-space-of-2 kind of triplet, not a group of three eighth notes). And the drop-the-note-for-a-cut trick is just a neat way of getting a really cool flow that many fiddlers, pipers, and fluters do but which nobody ever tells you about.

I would love a written out deconstructed first eight bars of Speed the Plough (hint hint BSteve) from there because I swear, he does long rolls, short rolls, triplets (the repeat note kind) and multi-note triplets, all in the first section.

Yeah right. As if I don’t have enough to do. Anyway I don’t have the record. Send me an mp3 and I’ll assess the feasibility.

Finally, I discovered that I have a quick enough tongue to play all three dablablas. But am I supposed to tongue them or THINK them? Or is this another way of showing variety? I ask because I was pondering the fact that it started out as a violin exercise, according to the site…

Don’t run before you can walk. Don’t chitter before you can roll. Get your ordinary vanilla tongueless rolls going well - like for a couple of years.

Then you can worry about whether to start tonguing your rolls à la Séan Ryan & co. (I note with satisfaction that our good friend Mick Woodruff is exploring the joys of this kind of lingual exuberance! It certainly froths things up…)

Better now?

On 2002-04-10 21:39, StevieJ wrote:
Sigh. It’s been a rude week for Brother Steve. First I discover people get depressed when they visit my website.

Or like my good friend Bloomfield, they spend months extolling the virtues of dah-blah-blah and then go to another teacher and the penny drops. It must be what those canny gurus have been saying all along - you’re much more likely to take notice of a teacher’s advice when you’ve paid for it. > :wink: > (Only tugging your Thomas, Bloomfield. Obviously a lesson from a teacher is worth any number of hours spent at a web site.)

I am always happy to reflect that musicians, unlike ordinary human beings, are above petty jealousy.

The difference, my friend, is the comparative effectiveness of reading “play it slowly” and having someone look at you with a furrowed brow saying, “slower. slower. slower still. Slower. SLOWER.” I really did think that the Star of Munster at 98 bpm was slow.

Thanks for the kind responses (Nemo, will you give me 50% off our next session?). I’ll try to add more, but it’s all a bit undigested, you know.

It’s interesting to chronicle the learning that takes place. Thanks, Bloomfield.

My important learning, of course, has been that there has been mention of the Bee Gees(!) today on this, the whistle board. :wink:

Jef

All comments in good humor Brother Steve. Thanks for addressing them practically item by item. I have learned a lot from your site and I appreciate it and want to thank you. At least we all HAVE something to be confused by thanks to you.

I got nowhere with the paper tutorials I own and did just as you described, wearing out the CD player and getting partial success by copying. I just had to go a little backwards when I found your site which I am not above doing.As a music reader, Oneills little notes provided both confusion and suggestion, including Krassen’s intro.

I am currently in that state of multiple-input confusion and reflected it in note. And I can just imagine how Bloomfield felt from opening note. He probably practices as frequently and as ardently as I do yet got “taken to the woodshed” by the expert despite trying to follow all advice etc. It’s a trip we all want to avoid if possible! We’re all seeking such help, I think.

Appreciatively yours,
The Weekenders

Adding later: I forgot to mention a clarification of why I posted first.

My cognitive dissonance is this: you are saying make rolls like micro-blip thingies.

But Bloomfield was told to SLOW down and that people were beat for going too fast . So are you saying, longer base notes but still with itty cut and tip? I can make it blip so fast that you can’t hear what tone it is really so what finger you cut and tip with is irrelevant. But I hear musicians doing more like mordant things on the records in addition to triplets (which may or may not have cuts and tips).That’s what I’m confused about, BSteve.

[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-04-11 01:12 ]

Great stuff, Bloomfield and Stevie!
Very helpful and the more the better–
please dredge up more details if
possible.

I’ve been playing rolls backwards–
instead of a cut followed by a tap,
I tap and then cut. On some tunes,
this has a very nice effect.

Slowly, slowly, yes, thanks…

Awesome thread and great techical info that can only serve to help us all! Thanks!!

All comments in good humor Brother Steve.

But of course.

Adding later: I forgot to mention a clarification of why I posted first.

My cognitive dissonance is this: you are saying make rolls like micro-blip thingies.

But Bloomfield was told to SLOW down and that people were beat for going too fast . So are you saying, longer base notes but still with itty cut and tip? I can make it blip so fast that you can’t hear what tone it is really so what finger you cut and tip with is irrelevant. But I hear musicians doing more like mordant things on the records in addition to triplets (which may or may not have cuts and tips).That’s what I’m confused about, BSteve.

As far as ordinary rolls go, could I ask you to re-read the page describing the dah-blah-blah method? (Slowly. Still more slowly. SLOWLY.) Then tell me if the way I explain the rhythm of a roll and the relative speed of all the components is really not clear.

I didn’t think I could explain it more clearly, but if it’s not getting through, I need to know.

Re. mordants and other thingies. Yes there are many other thingies. There are thingies that I don’t really know how to do, for example, or even want to know how to do. But you don’t have to learn everything at once, do you? Meanwhile a basic roll is a basic roll.[/quote]

On 2002-04-11 00:16, The Weekenders wrote:

My cognitive dissonance is this: you are saying make rolls like micro-blip thingies.

But Bloomfield was told to SLOW down and that people were beat for going too fast . So are you saying, longer base notes but still with itty cut and tip? I can make it blip so fast that you can’t hear what tone it is really so what finger you cut and tip with is irrelevant. But I hear musicians doing more like mordant things on the records in addition to triplets (which may or may not have cuts and tips).That’s what I’m confused about, BSteve.

I can answer that now. The goal really is to get you cuts & taps down to blips, not notes. No problem if you can’t hear the pitch of the blip. And the blips are not to get any longer just because the tempo is slower and the notes of the roll therefore longer. Brother Steve is more eloquent than I and he would tell you:

Daaaaaaaaaaaah Blaaaaaaaaah Blaaaaaaaaaaaah

Daaaaah Blaaaaah Blaaaaah

Dah Blah Blah

The whole point of the Dah-Blah-Blah method is to impress the blip-character of the cut & tap on the reticent and obtuse student (i.e, me).

As for hearing mordant-like thingies on recordings: What instruments are those? Stuff sounds different on button boxes and piano accordions.

peeplj: I think you’re right in pointing out that there are instances when a note on the beat gets a tap. I do it too, I guess, but only in descending passages in slow airs. In dance tunes, like jigs & reels, I think the note on the beat should be cut. Haven’t listened to Conal O’Grada, though. Did he do it also in dances?

The first Scoiltrad lesson I took was “The Fairy Reel” on flute.

If you go to the “advanced flute lessons” from http://www.scoiltrad.com, you can listen to a brief mp3 sample from the lesson, which is the “A” part of the reel.

He starts the “A” part with a long roll on B then the note A, then drops to a G which he taps.

By the way, listen to his timing on the long B roll. It fits very nicely into the discussion on rolls–particularly when he repeats the “A” part, you can hear three clear and separate notes in the roll.

He uses this tap as an articulation, and it’s one of the things that gives his playing his own characteristic sound. I don’t think I’ve ever heard any other flutist do it, though.

It’s a technique I’ve copied because I like using the fingers for articulation more than glottal stops.

–James
http://www.flutesite.com

One thing I always try to keep in mind while negotiating a roll is the concept of pitch. No matter how you approach it technically or how long your blips or blaa-daaas are, the goal is a decorated pitch. The note you are rolling on is one note decorated with some rhythmic interruptions. Often I find myself doing classical “turns” which is a note decorated by the note above then the note below. In a “turn” you decorate by changing pitch, on a roll the pitch stays the same. You must cut or tap quickly enough to avoid hearing a foriegn pitch. At a faster tempo even a well executed roll can come out like a “turn”. Man, the more I travel down it, the longer this road gets!

Hey:
Sorry to be so thick on this. I like the rolls I play and think they are about right but Bloomfields experience led me to the questions I posed.

Thanks to all including PeepleJ and Tunemarshall too!


[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-04-11 11:53 ]

[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-04-11 11:57 ]

A decorated pitch is one way to look at a roll, but I prefer to think of it as a rhythmic ornament, a kind of articulated subdivision of a note for rhythmic emphasis.

I actually learned from the classical side first, and I used to play rolls as grupettos (turns). It took a lot of work for me to relearn how to play them correctly for the style. A background in classical flute had left me well preparted for melodic ornamentation, but totally clueless as to how to rhythmically ornament anything or even that you could or would want to.

To see what I mean about rhythmic subdivision, listen to Fintan Vallelly play. He uses rolls in this way for great lift in his playing.

Now take rhythmic rolls and combine them with glottal stops, breath pulses on the strong beats, cuts, and taps, and you’ve got the makings of a powerful mighty music.

–James
http://www.flutesite.com

Hello folks…I am a bit late in seeing this thread, but want to comment. First I’d like to thank Bloomfield for his feedback. (Glad you enjoyed the lesson – it was a pleasure to work with you.)

I want to address the following remark from Bloomfield’s original post:

“Bill told me anecdotes of how the old teachers, like Martin Mulvilhil
who taught Eileen Ivers, would beat their pupils if they played fast.”

I am concerned that out of the context of our conversation, some readers might take my comment about Martin Mulvihill quite literally. This was meant in jest; it was an exaggeration to make a point. I never heard of Martin Mulvihill so much as laying a finger on any of his students, nor do I know of any other old Irish music teacher who did.

But some of these teachers were strict. They insisted that their students play at relaxed tempos, and in so doing imparted an unshakeable sense of rhythm and phrasing to the young musicians. A number of today’s superstars of Irish music learned this way.

Bill Ochs
New York