Greensleeves

That one is far less open to debate. Like, not even. And it grates on me too. But it behooves one to make allowances for those who have spelling difficulties, so since I’m not their teacher, I would bring it up only when my understanding the message is truly at stake. Or if I thought it was a good time to be a pr*ck.

I can understand maybe a third of it at best. Part of my difficulty is that he uses a lot more glottal-stop consonants than I’m used to. I know what a Ned is, anyway. :slight_smile:


Soooooooo… How about those Greensleeves?

help is at hand

You rang?

Sorry Ben, Mr. Panceltic is right. In all dialects of English I’m aware of, British and American, initial voiceless stop consonants (p,t,k, basically) at the beginning of words (of morphemes, actually) are pronounced with a secondary plosive articulation. Whereas the same consonant in other positions drop the plosive (and would sound strange with it). The plosive is a little puff of air that accompanies the release of the consonant. It may be stronger or weaker depending on the speaker and context, but it’s there.

I used to demonstrate this to my language students with a simple trick. Take a Kleenex or paper tissue, or even a thin sheet of paper. With thumb and finger on the top corners, hold it loosely under your nose and dangling right in front of your lips, touching them.

Now say the word “Take!” as if in a commanding voice. You’ll see the tissue fly outward as the puff of air hits it. Now say the words, “Stake!”, “Matter!”, “Right!” in the same voice. The tissue should remain nearly motionless for the “t”. No puff, no plosive. Now try to make the tissue move when say the last three words, and you’ll hear how strange it sounds.

Linguists would say that these two pronunciations are just positional variants/members of the same phoneme.

This quirk of English pronunciation is a problem for speakers of e.g. Romance languages that usually have no such plosive initial consonants. And when the plosive is omitted, native speakers tend to hear it as the voiced consonant instead: p as b, t as d, k as g. They say “pen” and “take” and “kite”, and we hear “ben” and “dake” and “guyte”. So it needs to be taught. Which is tricky, because native speakers themselves are not even aware they’re doing this.

How’s that for OT? :laughing:

So it’s really “Kreensleeves” and we’re just hearing “Greensleeves”?

Dang!

This is great. :laughing:

One of my Scots friends turned me onto this next one. All y’all on the other side of the Pond probably know it, so here’s for the Yanks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FFRoYhTJQQ

(A transcript is included. :wink: )

It could be! If the L2 (non-native) speaker is saying “kreensleeves” because his/her language favors the unvoiced “k” in that position. And this is a very resistant problem to fix. Because native speakers will tend not to correct the speaker because it’s understandable, and the error becomes fossilized.

The plosive issue is also what gives Hindi-influenced Indian English part of its character. Indian English tends to omit the initial plosives. Hence the Indian speaker reciting what sounds to us like “Beter Biper bicked a beck of bickled beppers.” :slight_smile:

Howsit

Um … thanks … I think … Mr Guru Sir … except …

I definitely pronounce the final ‘k’ of “milk” with that plosive thingie. Also for the ‘t’ in “matter” and the final ‘t’ in “right”, but not for the ‘t’ in the middle of “stake”. I do, however, pronounce the final ‘k’ in “stake” with that plosive thingie. I think everyone round here does, and also just about anyone I come across. I mean, I’ll listen out, but seriously, they’re definitely pronounced over here.

Now, your last paragraph on initial plosives and people coming from other languages I get. But I don’t get your earlier point, because it just doesn’t seem to accord with my experience.

BTW, I’ve been trying … but I just can’t say the word “milk” without that plosive thingie on the end … can’t even make myself do it …

Time for a phone call … And have your Kleenex handy*.

(*Which sounds slightly dirty, doesn’t it?) :laughing:

Seriously, I know what you’re doing and hearing, and it’s not what you think it is.

When words like milk or stake are pronounced carefully in isolation, there’s a tendency to finish the final consonant with a little velar click. That’s normal, but it’s not the plosive. If it were, you would sound like you’re saying “mill-KUH” and “stay-KUH” (where the KUH is whispered). Or in context, your “milk and honey” would sound like “mill can honey” or “mill canned honey”. Those two phrases should normally sound different, even for you.

As for “matter” … Yes, it’s possible you’re using a bit of plosive in free variation. But unless your phrase “matter rain” sounds exactly like “matte terrain”, it’s not the full thing.

Of course, Americans voice those t’s intervocalically. So our “matter” becomes “madder”. Which is what I hope your are not after reading this explanation.

Or “quotation marks” and ‘apostrophes’ for that matter… :wink:

Best wishes.

Steve

Double quotes as used by you or single quotes as used by me, none of which we’re typing correctly here…

Think you’re wide of the mark, Steve!

“
”
‘
’

Sounds like a food fetishist ordering lunch.

Oh lord … At first I read foot fetishist, and you had me wracking my brain … :laughing:

Having initially agreed with Ben about those consonants I tried out what MTGuru suggests with the tissue (or palm of hand) and see (feel) that he is right.

I have a colleague with excellent idiomatic English as his third language ( :boggle: so far as I am concerned) who tends to say “mill-KUH” and “stay-KUH”. He would say “stay-KUHs” for “stakes”, which is when it really shows.

Eddy-way, I’b dot sure de phode test would work at de bobent …

:frowning:

Me too. And how apropos: we have green sleeves.

Alas my lungs, you do me wrong
To cast up mucus discourteously
For I have drowned in you so long
Distressed by your rough company

Green sneeze is all my day
Green sneeze is all my night
Greed sdeeze, I hab a code
And someone might catch my green sneeze.

Alas my love you do me distress
By wiping your nose on the sleeve of your dress
Forsooth my love it doth me grieve
to hear them calling you green sleeves

On the off-chance that someone interested in original topic reads this far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii8G8J-gVic

Linked by ‘syn whistles’ in a current discussion.