I chose my words carefully and said “the actual tune as normally played nowadays”.
I made no claim that there exists any one and only ‘correct’ version, and I made no claim of historicity for the version normally encountered nowadays. The former is the domain of the pedant, the latter the domain of the historian. I’m coming from the perspective of a musician who has to play along with other musicians.
That alternating 7th is often heard in Elizabethan music and old folk tunes and gives a lovely distinctive character to Greensleeves. Something is lost when the tonality is altered, whatever the reason.
The sea shanty Old Maui also has an alternating 7th, though reversed, it being sharp on first appearance and flat on the cadence. To me that tune sounds quite old, partly for that reason. It would lose that feel if the 7ths were all played the same.
BTW I’m disappointed that Highland piper’s insistence on playing a sharp 7th, rather than the correct flat one, on the final cadence of Flower Of Scotland has now spread to the entire stadium at Murrayfield, as I heard last weekend at the Six Nations match. That same weekend I was playing pipes for Scotland at the USA Sevens and I play that note properly. It’s quite easy to do so on the pipes and it’s inexcusable for the pipers at Murrayfield to ruin that song.
Henry VIII is often credited with writing the lyrics to Greensleeves, presumably to an extant tune. Assuming that is correct, or at least that the song arose during Hank’s reign, that’s an argument for the air being pre-Elizabethan.
Is it? Can you give any references for this or other examples?
In the meantime, I’m with Peter and the Guru - I hear the tune as (based on a tonality of A) having F#s rather than Fnats. The natural Fs just sound wrong to me, and, I’m guessing, would to most here in the UK. It’s not “normally played [that way] nowadays” as far as I’m concerned.
In contrast, the “Flower of Scotland” thing doesn’t bother me at all. It’s a very recent composition - 1965? - and, you know, these things change.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAuYkxhfc-I
See this? That’s how it’s played today for ABRSM Grade 3 Tuned Percussion (IMHO very soft at the grade!) and how I’m teaching it (on more sustaining metallophone rather than the videoed xylo) for National 5 Music right now. Same as Vaughan Williams, how I expect it to go and how I like it.
In contrast, the “Flower of Scotland” thing doesn’t bother me at all. It’s a very recent composition - 1965? - and, you know, these things change.
But agree with PCP on this one (Flower of Scotland requiring the flattened seventh).
So am I! 
I agree with your basic point … but man, for a percussionist, yon fella hasn’t got very good rhythm, has he? 
Don’t get me wrong, Peter, I prefer the flattened seventh on that last bit - it is how it was written after all - it’s just that, being recent, it strikes me as being still pretty malleable, and who knows? I might like it another way one day. Greensleeves, however, has been the way it is (same way you hear it) for further back than I can remember, or even my long-dead parents would have remembered. And before … and before … so it hurts more when it’s changed, especially when it’s changed for no good reason.
Never heard that clip before forgetting to check the Grade 3 book at school today and Googling it when I got home… but, no, considering his reputation, I was surprised and still am on hearing it again!
Greensleeves, however, has been the way it is (same way you hear it) for further back than I can remember, or even my long-dead parents would have remembered. And before … and before … so it hurts more when it’s changed, especially when it’s changed for no good reason.
Quite! Although I’d still grit my teeth to play it another way if needs must accompanying someone who couldn’t/wouldn’t change…
Isn’t it fair to suggest that he was basically “getting through it” as an expedient to teaching the melody itself? He wasn’t really performing in the standard sense, so I think he might be forgiven the impatience. That said, I’d prefer to be spot-on whatever the case, myself. Call me a pedant.
You’re a pedant.
And one more thing: I was laughing at myself because I couldn’t understand a word he said in his intro, other than “quaver”. The Scots tongue can be a real challenge for me.
Which is the one you’d probably be least likely to use yourself?
Quaver, and the rest of that nomenclature. But I know of it (only in passing, to be sure), so it was recognisable.
If that’s what you meant.
Ah now. That’s interesting. I didn’t even think of that. His accent sounds really mild to me. I am not Scottish. Shows what a separation of an ocean will do.
Well, I have to be around it for it to sink in because for one thing, while it’s all characteristically Scottish, to my ear it’s not homogeneous, and living in the States as I do, that means I have to get used to the individual speaker. I would have to adjust my ear going from Lallans to The Doric. If I lived in Scotland I’m sure I’d eventually have the necessary breakthrough. I have two Scots friends here, and they are pretty easy to understand, but I think that’s because they themselves have modified their speech some.
Exactly what I meant! 
Although I teach both European and American nomenclature because they’re both useful. European because it’s standard here and American for the light it shines on some things (‘see that 4/4 time signature, it’s literally four quarter notes’) as well as its frequent use in drumming/rock-orientated books even here (with 4-beats, 8-beats, 12-beats, 16-beats etc. tying in nicely).
The Scots tongue can be a real challenge for me.
Whereas I’d say that was English spoken with a Scots accent as opposed to ‘Scots tongue’ per se!
Or maybe Henry VIII wrote the lyrics before the tune was composed, as a foreseeing king ahead of his time.
I suggest playing both simultaneously as a gentlemen’s agreement.
Here we are : some kind of evolution of the lithophone…
It took me a little while to check the various versions of Greensleeves I have ( mainly on the lute or on the guitar ), and here are the results :
F or its equivalent : The Broadside Band , Paul 0’Dette , Julian Bream , Alfred Deller , Nigel North w. C. Hogwood, Konrad Ragossnig .
F # or its equivalent : Alfred Deller Consort , Ralph Vaughan Williams orchestral fantasy, John Coltrane .
None : Baltimore consort ( plays different variations of the first part of the tune ).
Thelonious Monk plays a F# Maj7 b5 sus4 add13 which doesn’t help.
Interestingly, A. Deller has recorded both F and F# versions. I admittidely prefer the F versions because I mainly listened to lute versions, and I was taught this version on the guitar. My favorite one is certainly Jeremy Barlow’s Broadside Band, a part of their " Beggar’s opera " record, which I highly recommand.
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- Attribution of quote edited - Mod
I think you know that I know the difference.
Then I will clarify that the accent was so thick to me that even if it was English and not Scots per se, I couldn’t tell. So I see I used the words “Scots tongue” too freely. In retrospect, “Scottish speech” would have been the better choice. If I hung out with him I’d eventually get a grip on it.
Where’s the ‘Like’ button when you need it? (For you, Christophe, as much as Thelonious!)
Aye… see that winky smiley?
Christophe, t’es vachement drôle (et un peu méchant).
C’est mieux que l’inverse.