Hear, hear.
Forgive me if I’m misreading you, James, but I sense a bit of an implication here that expecting people to sit and listen to tunes is commonly reserved for beginners only (i.e., “advanced” players play in every tune) and that a “beginner-friendly” session would “allow” beginners to play all the time. And I’ve seen that this is how it works in many places, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a good thing. I know that if I had the whistle ability of Mary Bergin and was sitting in with musicians of similar skill I’d want to spend even more time listening than I do with my current meager playing skills and beginner-friendly sessions.
Indeed, if there’s a session where everyone plays all the time and nobody ever (or rarely) stops and listens, I think the musicians should stop and ask themselves what they’re doing wrong 
orgive me if I’m misreading you, James, but I sense a bit of an implication here that expecting people to sit and listen to tunes is commonly reserved for beginners only (i.e., “advanced” players play in every tune) and that a “beginner-friendly” session would “allow” beginners to play all the time.
Nope, that’s not it.
We all listen from time to time. Does everyone play in every tune in your sessions?
We’ve never actually had a beginner (that I know of) try to play every tune or even try to start more than a few tunes. Usually just the fact that they are sitting in the circle is intimidating enough for them.
Perhaps it’s the culture, or perhaps we just get a better quality of beginner, here. I don’t know.
I do know we have a very friendly session. The few times we’ve had problems they’ve proven to be self-resolving.
–James
Huh, I could swear my man T said the same thing earlier…
Loren
Most people play most tunes, when they’re not talking to each other or running for beer. In other words, most people don’t seem to spend an appreciable amount of time just listening to others play, although some do. I don’t want to come off as judgmental, but listening to tunes is a really important part of the session for me.
-Craig
A lot of times our trouble is trying to get some one who we know plays to get brave enough to come to the session at all. There’s a couple of folks I’ve been working on for months, now.
Actually getting them into the circle can be its own challenge.
It takes guts to join the circle and it takes guts to take a turn and start a tune.
Usually beginners seem terrified, not pushy.
In my experience, of course. Your mileage may vary.
–James
I agree. I’ve seen it, and I’ve experienced it myself, many times (I’m still a beginner).
-Craig
You said:
Part of the original point was that Irish music is supposedly played at ‘sessionspeed’ which according to the original point is faster than any other musical genre and something C&F unattainable members.
I didn’t say either thing, as even a quick read of my original posting reveals. I can only assume you’re deliberately distorting what I said, and that’s rude.
First, I never wrote that session speed is faster than any other musical genre.
What I actually wrote was that few genres play at the pace of a fast reel at a US session. You seem to think that scoffing at that constitutes some kind of rebuttal. If you really don’t believe that’s true, why don’t you point out some of the musical genres that play at tempos of 250 or upwards? (Much less ones that are open to casual musicians.)
Second, I never wrote that session speeds are unattainable by C&Fers.
What I actually wrote was that the average hobbyist musician can expect to take several years to play the whistle at a fast session pace. Since you agreed with me in your first response (“it won’t come in weeks or months”) you clearly understood my point.
As evidenced by the “why can’t I play faster?” postings seen monthly on C&F, many beginners on the whistle have the expectation that they should be able to play at fast session speeds after a few months on the whistle. For most people, that’s a false impression, and I think it is better in the long run to understand that it will likely take several years to master the whistle to the point where they can comfortably drop in on a fast session. To judge by the numerous "hear, hear"s my posting generated, that sentiment seems widespread.
Scott
I won’t go and quibble about what you say although I readily admit to not always reading posts all that carefully.
but you did say :
Unless you’re particularly gifted, have hours of free time every day to practice, or are already expert on another instrument, it takes several years to play at session speed. You’ll probably never be able to play as fast and as well as a professional whistle player, and there’s a good chance that you’ll never master ornamentation at session speeds (although you might think you have).
where I see no mention of specifically US session. You do mention US sessions specifically later on but only in reference to the time ‘they get going’. No session ever starts here before 10.30 by the way and that never stopped many Irish people becoming decent players.
My experience of Irish music is not one that moves at speeds over 250, although I also admit to not having any mental image with that sort of technicalities, I do know Breandan Breathnach’s recomended max speed of 234 and remember trying that once when I had access tot a metronome and although I would be comfortable enough at that speed I don’t think I hear much faster playing by any sensible musician who knows about irish music.
I think, instead of focussing on the non issue of speed, if you really want to help beginners, it’s probably better to focus on issues of rhythm and phrasing which are far more crucial. You can play very good and worthwhile Irish music without reaching ‘250’ but you can’t without the other two I mentioned.
I agree that tunes flow along (or lurch along, as it may be 
) at a goodly clip sometimes.
Still, if you want to hear really fast playing, you need to hear a recording of Rampal playing the Telemann solo Fantasias for flute. I don’t think I’ve ever heard any Irish tune played at any speed remotely approaching this. (Rampal was once clocked at over 100 muscle movements per second.)
–James
P.S. edited: the Telemann pieces are fantasias, not concertos. My bad.
You must be counting them in 4/4. Nobody would count in 2/2 and play 250 bpm. Even groups like Altan who are commonly described as playing really fast don’t come close to that.
Rather than step into an argument over the meaning of “many” vs. “all,” can I just suggest that I’ve found that counting reels in cut time instead of common time has helped me tremendously in dealing with both the speed and getting them to sound like reels instead of long chains of eighth notes? This puts the tempo into a much more manageable 125 bpm, to use your example, and Irish music is hardly the only genre which plays four notes per beat.
I’m serious, counting differently has really helped me.
-Craig
I’m serious, counting differently has really helped me.
Seriously here, as a small aside, I have seen this mentioned a couple of times recently and I just can’t get my head around people actually counting music. I hear a tune and play it the way I think I hear it and so does everybody I know.
I don’t mean “counting” literally, i.e., I’m not thinking, “one, two, one, two.” I can’t imagine doing that. Rather, I’m referring to the fact that when I play a reel I’m tapping my foot twice per measure instead of four times per measure.
-Craig
Right, I had the impression from what people were saying a while ago they were actually counting. Whatever works I suppose, I have the left foot setting the beat and the other one going double that to fill in the pulse which helped me immensely getting a solid rhythm. Basically what Micho Russell used to do .
You are obviously very smart and write and think much more carefully than the rest of us. There’s no need for calling people rude, if they can’t quite follow (Peter will forgive me). I mean, I myself am trying but I still can’t wrap my head around how you actually didn’t say what you said. For me at least it would be a great help if you could just dumb it down a bit and write what you mean. You know, with a few extra words thrown in for clarification. Thanks.
Peter, that’s a great tip.
I’m going to give that a try.
Thanks for posting that.
–James
Thats right. It is a convention to notate Irish music in 4/4, but it is counted in cut time.
So instead of a staccato hail of musical machine gun bullets ricocheting around the room trying to keep up with the clicking box you’ve got some space to put in music. Four notes to the beat and you only have to come out even on the last note. The lilt, swing, whatever is what you now have the freedom to do with those four notes. The artistry of playing Irish music is how you use that four note space to do your thing. It’s a close court, but not so close that you can’t play on it.
And good Lord almighty, does it really have to be said again that this is dance music and needs to played to a dancable ryhthm and beat to even sound right?
The overtrained little dance school darlin’s in their fake “traditional” outfits’ll dance at 120. For real dancers, ya know, people, who wanna have a bit of dance, 112 is more appropriate, unless aunt Molly has had a couple too may ciders again, then you might want to bring it down to 108 for her or she’ll not only embaress herself, but break an ankle.
Happens that’s also a fine pace to show your skill as a musician, rather than a jock. This isn’t a race. There’s no ribbon for whoever can get to the end of the set first. Next thing ya know people will start coming to sessions wearing lycra spandex aero suits with sponsor logos all over 'em.
Have a pint. Hell, have a Zoloft if that’s what it takes. Have a whole bottle of 'em. Chill out. Have fun. Make some music and not just a bloody racket. Leave that sort of thing to the laser light and fog machine crowd.
KFG
Scott, Thanks for the very encouraging thoughts.
I have been playing for about a year and four months now, and I’ve never been to a session–but there are a few things I’ve noticed:
I cannot play jigs at the speed I hear them on sound clips and some CDs.
When I try, my fingers trip all over themselves–no matter how long I practice a tune. I make mistakes in every single song.
Playing jigs and such that fast feels like eating my lunch in four minutes.
I notice the Cherish the Ladies doesn’t play that fast.
I know some tunes are being played too fast because they sound frantic. Irish music was used for dances, and how anyone could dance to that I DO now know!
There seems to be a natural speed for every tune, and if I let myself, I can slide into it. It is often much slower than the speeds I hear.
After a few jigs, I’m always ready for a return to slow airs and worship music!
Thaks for the encouragement.
One thing I would like to mention about sessions is the support and encouragement they can provide. I am a newcomer to Irish music and for the most part when the jigs start I sit back and watch the rosin fly. I play along with some of the songs. The amazing thing for me is that after the session someone almost always stops and tells me what a great job I am doing and how much progress I am making. I often don’t feel like I have done a great job. I tend to get discouraged because I measure my ability against seasoned players, but the more experienced players can help by giving the perspective of measuring a newcomer against other beginners they have seen.
Why can’t I play faster? Because I have only been at it six months. Am I playing fast enough for someone with six months experience? I will have to take the word of the experts.