We’ve discussed this and thing sot do with it before, but maybe it’s time to do it again.
I was just practising with Flutini. I generally think that my most out of tune note is B, especially top B (B5). It turns out that that’s not my worst note by some way. My very worst note in terms of tuning is the E just above middle D, ie E5. At the moment, unless I can find a way round it, it’s consistently 26 cents sharp.
I’m curious, firstly, as to why I didn’t know this without bothering with Flutini. Secondly, that note seems impossible - for me at least - to ‘lip down’. I understand why there’s a tendency for this note to be sharp - it’s something to do with how much we can stretch and the hole not being in the right place and being too small in order to compensate and that sort of stuff. But is there anything I can do about it? (Other than buy another flute.)
I don’t know if I’ll eventually have anything to add to the conversation as it progresses, however as a starting point for any discussions where tuning/playing in tune, is involved, I do think it’s critical to say what temperament you are referencing. Many will assume Equal, while many traditional music players will think some form of Just, and if so, which one?
I know it seems like a little thing, but in actuality, for purposes of discussions like these, it Can be an important distinction when one starts thinking about potential ways to get around your problem other than lipping/rolling.
OK. I’m referring to Equal Temperament. But in any case, for the notes in question - A, B and E but especially E, - it makes little to no difference what temperament we use.
I think Loren raises a good point. The notion of in-tune depends more on the ear, the key/mode of the tune you are playing, and who you are playing with (and what kind of tuning constraints their instrument is subject to). Playing by yourself with Flutini analyzing your tuning will probably never result in a perfectly in-tune equal temperament result, even if your ear, your flute and your playing is perfect. The reason being that equal temperament tuning is a whole collection of compromises, for various practical reasons that often don’t apply in ITM.
However, having said that, I think an E that is 26 cents sharp is way too big a difference to be accounted for by that explanation. The difference between just intonation and equal temperament tuning for E is only a few cents (about 4, I think), assuming a scale based on D.
I’m curious to hear what your most in-tune notes are. This would have bearing on how you set your tuning slide.
It’s late and I’m getting sleepy enough to have blunted thinking so take this in that context:
First thing I’d want is a plot of what your tuning looks like through 2 octaves.
Second is a plot from the maker on the exact intended (and actual) tuning scale, which for a wooden flute probably isn’t ET. I’d also ask which notes, if any, were intended to be cross fingered or vented, and how.
Finally, while waiting for a reply on the latter, I’d start wondering if I came to my decision on the current slide position I use properly. Then I’d move the slide out far enough to get that “e” note to +13 cents from zero equal temp, and see what that does to the rest of the scale when you play.
And I’ll assume your HJ stopper is in the standard position.
Interestingly, on a flute that I’ve always thought had a ‘flat bottom’, going from memory, the bottom D was almost bang on, then E4 was a bit sharp (but not out of the way) F#4 nearly perfect but a tad flat, G4 absolutely perfect, A4 pretty good if just a tad sharp, B4 pretty good, C5 sharp, C#5 bang on, D5 bang on, E5 (well, we’ve talked about that one ) F#5 just slightly under, G5 bang on, A5 and B5 a little sharp. But I’ll do what Loren suggests later and try it again and try and show the graph. I’m always slightly mortified when looking at something like Flutini. I have a pretty good ear, but it seems to show that my tuning is all over the place! Anyway, I’ll bear all and share it with the world.
I’ll do that in a little while.
That could be tricky. It’s an R&R from 1838. However, what was really interesting was when I tried it with a Wilkes head I happen to have, made for another antique flute. The tuning overall was a lot better. But I want it better with the original head!
Now that is a very sensible suggestion. Not sure why I didn’t think of that … Having said which, because of the compromises our flutes naturally have to have built into them, I’d expect the E always to be a bit on the sharp side - it’s just a question of how much.
[/quote]It was set originally by Chris Wilkes and I always check it and make sure it’s in the same place. I use both the indicator pin and a mark on a piece of thin dowel to check this. I can’t remember exactly how far from the embouchure hole it is, but I can measure later, when I’ve had my coffee.
One thing you could try in order to rectify this problem is to try to reduce the size of the hole that vents E. If you do this on the south side of the hole only (i.e., the side furthest away from the embouchure) you will flatten both E5 and E4 somewhat, but you will have more effect on E5 than E4, which is what you want. You could experiment with some tape or beeswax in the hole.
The other thing you can do to nudge things in the right direction, is make a slight slide adjustment so that your D, F# and C# are a bit flatter, which would be a “normal” pattern for antiques, and not quite as unjust as equal temperament tuning, i.e., it might sound good.
The stopper might be slightly too close to your embouchure too, since your upper register A and B are also sharper than their lower register equivalents, although it is interesting that the upper and lower register G are in tune with each other.
Yes I suppose I could. I haven’t tried yet, but my understanding is that, the hole already being pretty small, it’s really about as small as it can be and still get a decent tone out of the note. It is, after all, already one of the hardest notes to get a decent tone out of, for that very reason. Or, at least, I think that’s the reason, and it’s certainly true that, on all of my flutes, the E is the hardest to produce a decent tone out of.
OK. I’m just playing about with Futini now. Pulling the headjoint cork out seems to stretch the octaves, making the situation at the top of the flute worse, giving me back my flat bottom D, and marginally improving the E5. I was playing with the cork set at 19mm. I’ve just been trying it at 21mm. I would say that it’s a lot easier to play, but the tuning is even harder to control.
Here’s what I’ve just got with hj cork set at 21mm (oh, and perhaps I ought to have said from the start - I’m not just playing each note in turn up the scale; this is measured from me playing tunes):
Interesting topic - how long have you had the flute? I used to play E’s, A’s & B sharp in varying degrees until I started working on my embouchure - tightening up, lipping down etc. Now those notes are a lot better
… but first I’ll set down the latest flutini readings. Because of the way the programme works, some notes disappear from the readings at certain points, so my reading for E5 is my memory of what was showing before it disappeared. I think it’s right though. This set of numbers is with the hj cork set at 20ml and the tuning slide extended just 1mm further out than my usual:
Just woke up, so once again I’m half asleep but having read through your responses, I think the fact that another headjoint on the flute gives better tuning is telling. I think sorting out the best combination of slide adjustment and stopper placement is the next logical step, and will give you the most improvement at this stage.
How to proceed? There are several ways, but the simplest is probably to throw that other Wilkes HJ on play and plot the tuning, and adjust the tuning slide till you get the best results. Then, measure the distance from center of the embouchure to the edge of the barrel section - this assuming you are swapping just the HJ and not the HJ and barrel - then remove the non-native HJ and measure they stopper distance. Next, adjust the stopper on the native HJ to match the non-native. Finally, install the original HJ on the flute, and adjust the center of Embouchure to leading barrel joint edge distance until it matches the measurement you took with the other HJ on the flute. Play and plot. Curse Loren as required if the results suck BTW, prior to doing the above, I would measure the center of embouchure to barrel distance you are currently using with the original HJ, for later reference.
Question, are the two embouchure holes the same size and shape? Are the chimney angles and undercut different? Also can you measure the HJ inner diameter on both flutes? Are they the same?
Flute tuning trouble shooting can be tough because there are no doubt additional, technique, factors at play - embouchure shape/style, how much of the embouchure hole you cover with your lower lip, the angles you blow at and how hard you blow for each note, method for adjusting pitch - roll the flute, thrust the chin, move he lips in/out, re-direct the airstream angle with the lips…
Anyway, if you choose to try what I outlined above, I’ll be interested to hear what you find, I love a mystery!
P.S. What does the chart look like when playing the flute you can play most well in tune? And, when playing single notes up and down the scale, rather than tunes, what does that chart look like?
Looking at the charts you’ve posted so far, and the other info you’ve provided, it does look like a combination of equipment and technique. That is to say, I believe Chris Norman could play your flute in tune in its current configuration, but the flute is probably not in its optimum configuration for ease of doing so.
One more thing. It would be a good idea to keep track of the room temperature while you go through all these experiments. A warm room is going to raise the pitch across the board, but if you compensate for that by adjusting the slide, it will have more effect on the upper notes than the lower ones in each register. So variations in room temperature will mess with the tuning balance too. This is another reason why there really is no such thing as a perfectly in tune flute. If its in tune at one temperature, it will be out at a different temperature, all other things being equal. So, as with all good experiments, try to control as many variables as you can, and just vary the one you are interested in.
Loren - I’ll try and get back to the experiments that you outline in your last but one post, but meanwhile, tackling the later post:
I did try that yesterday with two flutes that I can play … well, how I want to play them really. They both showed flat F#s and sharp E5s but good As and Bs. I’m not bothered about the flat F#s; the E5s do bother me a bit, although on these other two flutes it isn’t too much of an issue. Trouble is, the flute this thread is about is my main flute for most practical purposes, and I feel that I have to get it a bit better. I did find it comforting, however, to take a look at the tuning measurements on Terry McGee’s site. Mine are not all that far out. There’s really not all that much difference - some specifics, but the ones on Terry’s site are out nearly as much, just on different notes.
It is true that, of course, it is much, much better when I’m playing single notes, at reasonably stead speed, up and down the scale. However, although just about all notes can be brought into decent enough tuning when just doing a scale reasonably slowly, that E5 just won’t come down.
I think this is a fair enough comment. And just picking up a point from your earlier post, I think I may well just swap to the Wilkes head and be done with it, since it is quite a bit better. Shame though. I like the original hj. I swapped hj and barrel, btw. I’m afraid I can’t do the particular experiment you suggested as the Wilkes hj doesn’t quite fit on the original barrel - close, but no cigar.
Dead right, paddler, and I hadn’t been thinking of that. It is true that this flute is much better in tune in winter, in coolish rooms.
) F#5 just slightly under, G5 bang on, A5 and B5 a little sharp. But I’ll do what Loren suggests later and try it again and try and show the graph. I’m always slightly mortified when looking at something like Flutini. I have a pretty good ear, but it seems to show that my tuning is all over the place! Anyway, I’ll bear all and share it with the world. 
but having read through your responses, I think the fact that another headjoint on the flute gives better tuning is telling. I think sorting out the best combination of slide adjustment and stopper placement is the next logical step, and will give you the most improvement at this stage.
if the results suck