Right. So, I get why the E is weak, especially in the bottom octave. The tone hole which you open to get E is small, so a weak note, right? Slightly veiled?
But the next tone hole up is quite a big one so why, when I play, at least, is the F# also a (relatively) weak note? Not as weak as the E, but nowhere near as strong as the G. I don’t get it.
[And before Mr Theflute jumps in - he knows full well that I DO vent the blinking thing - Eb and F keys.]
Why would the F# need to be vented at all? Any other weak notes on the lower hand - possibly a leak at the joint? I play F# xxx|xoo , no keys vented.
I’d say either leak somewhere or bad blowing… also consider that the lower you go, the more difficult it gets.
The ‘veiled E’ is sometimes thought to be an artefact in older flutes. . .the result of bore and other compromises to enable playing into the third octave. Some modern made flutes simply do not have a veiled E. Because the flutes are made primarily for ITM and will generally only be played up to the second octave, the maker can then make adjustments to allow playing without venting. Strictly IMHO.
Bob
Oh, I don’t mind my veiled E. Adds character. And the bottom D is fine. I wouldn’t say I’m exactly getting a ‘honk’ out of it (yet), but it’s loud enough, so I don’t think it’s to do with leaks. The amount by which the F# is quieter than the G is quite small. But it’s still a discernible difference, and I would have expected it to be louder than the G, if anything. Puzzling, it is. I guess it must be something I’m doing …
G is a strong note because the next hole down is big and a semitone (instead of a tone) apart.
R-i-g-h-t … Why does the ‘semitone instead of tone’ thing matter? Am I being thick here?
So, are you doing any venting on the F#, and if so, why?
Depends on the context, TBH. I always vent the Eb key, on everything except a D. I play an antique, and it definitely gives a better tone overall if you do. Or at least, it does for me. If it’s a long note, I’ll also vent the F key on an F#, because it brightens the tone and also raises the pitch just slightly to bring it into tune. You wouldn’t notice the difference in a fast tune though, and it’s too much of a fag, so I don’t bother in the faster bits.
F# is a monster note on all my flutes… One of the strongest. And that is without any extra venting. And at least two of them play well in the third octave (GLP and Windward). I’d take a long hard look at either your flute or your playing. Mine are modern flutes though, so YMMV.
Ah, this helps me to understand why our responses haven’t been especially helpful. I play an antique Wylde (like a Rudall) and fortunately it does not require that extra work, and primarily uses whistle fingering. So, seems you are dealing with the quirks of your particular instrument (what is it, BTW?). Terry McGee shows some old Pratten fingering which does use keys for venting, just as you describe:
What is it? It’s my lovely Rudall patent head - gorgeous, it is. Requires a bit of work, but fantastic sound.
I still think there’s got to be a reason for that slight difference in volume between the G and the F# - maybe Elvellon got it, but I don’t understand this semitone vs tone thing - I don’t see why that makes a difference.
ChrisCracknell - taking the scale of D, on my flute, the D, G, A, B and C# are huge notes. All of them. The E is slightly veiled, and the F# is just a tad quieter than the G, say. Cnat with the C key is a massive, clear note, but you can’t really find a cross-fingering for C nat to quite match that level of tone and volume.
I shouldn’t grumble really - I mean, one of the reasons I prefer the old flutes is the lack of evenness in tone across different notes. It makes the overall sound more interesting, to my mind.
Cobwebs? Blow that spider out!
Having read this, had a quick toot on my R&R and my F# seems pretty strong and resonant and pretty equal to the G in particular, vented or not. Of course, it is flat (in ET terms) unvented - which is why I mostly do vent save in some places in fast passage-work.
Spiders and venting aside, I reckon it is likely an embouchure issue.
@ Kevin - You’re in line with the vast majority of ITM players in not venting on your Wylde, but Mr Wylde would certainly have expected his Classical original purchaser to use the full vented fingering schema that was the norm/“standard” on simple system flutes in their proper era. There are plenty of period fingering charts showing the ventings and discussion of them in Rockstro etc. We’ve covered all that many’s the time. If you’re interested, I could e-mail you both Rockstro’s and Langey’s charts - both of which give the F#s vented. I wouldn’t mind betting that (FWIW) if you play your Wylde to a tuner, take care not to lip notes in and make as objective a test as you can, that the “whistle fingerings” actually throw up several out-of-tune notes that can be corrected by appropriate venting, and that if you compare the vented and unvented F#s and C#s you will be able readily to see the differences. That’s not at all to say you need to change the way you play, though.
No. But you will…
But why would you want your F#s (and C#s) in ET tune, and not just intoned, in ET terms flat? I understand if you wish to please the piano player or blend with the concertina, but if you play without such?
A quick one, and then - Jem, over to you to hold the fort for me until about midnight, at which point I might take a break, as I struggle on with preparations for my bleeding inspection this Friday …
I reckon the F# in particular, unvented, is just a tad (or perhaps a microtad) flat even of JI, unless you lip it up. Vent it and it’s somewhere between JI and ET. Which is probably not enough to notice for either, because you’d just adjust, kind of subconsciously. Either way - if it’s a long note, and I vent it, I can make it sound right with a concertina, or right with a drone. Without, and it’s just a little bit more effort.
Many flutes are made with a flat F#, even modern flutes. Call it a taste thing.
I once noticed that Michael Hynes had modified his Murray to have a sharper F#, so I began to pay a bit more attention to the subject. When I had my current flute made, I specifically requested a slightly sharper F#, which I’ve found just pleases my ear and suits my playing-style, to the point where I went back and had a couple other flutes retuned to match.
Rob
Aagh! You didn’t have your Rudall ‘re-tuned’ did you??!?!!!
Perish the thought!
I was speaking of modern yokes. However, somebody (somepaddy) in the distant past did do me the favour on my old, hacked-up Wylde. That was about the only thing that was done right!
Rob
Phew! I went quite faint there for a minute …
… but if they’re only “modern yokes” …