Copley flute: non-vented D is difficult

Irish Flute
1

I’m borrowing a friend’s Copley delrin flute, and I like it so much that I just ordered one for myself.

It’s overall a bit easier to play than my old M&E - especially the bottom three notes. The most difficult thing about it is playing second-octave D. I never had any trouble with this note on my old M&E flute, and I always fingered it like XXX XXX (the same fingering I use on whistle). I’ve found that it’s very hard to get this to sound good on a Copley flute. It requires the exact right amount of breath pressure. If you give too little, it has ugly undertones, and if you give too much, it squeaks up to high A (third register). It’s like balancing on a tightrope. Playing fast passages with second-octave Ds in them is a challenge.

But vented D (OXX XXX) doesn’t have this problem at all.

So my questions are:

  • Has anyone noticed that some flutes have difficulty with non-vented D and play better with vented D?
  • Has anyone noticed this issue with Copley flutes in particular?
  • Is my embouchure to blame? Will this problem go away with more practice?
  • Alternatively, is it better for me to simply switch to using vented D? I don’t mind using it - I’m just not used to it, so it will take some time to make the switch. I also am a little hesitant to do this because I’m used to doing non-vented cuts and cranns, and I’d have to switch to vented cuts and cranns, which sound a lot more stylized.
2

Yes! There must be a reason why this is the standard fingering, don’t you think? Unvented D is nice as a special effect (shaded, “dirtier” tone), but for your default D, you’ll get a much clearer tone if you vent #1, and you’ll avoid the problems you mention.

3

Makes sense! I just wonder why I found it so easy to play unvented D on my M&E flute.

I also wonder how flute-dependent this is. I remember at least one very good flute player telling me never vents high D at all. Maybe some flutes just handle unvented D better than others?

Another thing I’m wondering: for cuts and cranns, is it more standard to do them vented on flute? Or do people just go ahead and play an unvented D for that one note, just so they can do a cut or crann on it? Which is more typical?

4

I agree with Flutern’s advice to get used to using a vented D, but I’m pretty sure the problem you have is just that your embouchure is not sufficiently well developed yet.
I’ve played a lot of Copley flutes, including several of his delrin flutes, and a lot of flutes from other makers, past and present. Copley flutes are not at all unusual in their behavior.
To the contrary, in fact. I’d say that they are actually very friendly to new players, which is why they are frequently recommended on this forum.

You just need to spend some time training your embouchure, switching registers, playing the second register quietly and delicately, playing higher harmonics using right hand fingering only, etc. A refined embouchure will come, and managing these transitions will soon become second nature.

5

Brad Hurley has offered an exercise for that sort of development of the upper registers. It involves playing a scale, beginning with the second register d, using only right hand fingering (all left fingers down) as Paddler mentions above. In general, it helps with both the embouchure and breath control in all registers.

Best wishes.

Steve

6

I like exercises. I know it’s strange.

Try this. Each line played on one continuous breath, NO tonguing, using embouchure control only

D d D d D d D… (using closed d)
E e E e E e E…
F# f# F# f# F# f# F#…
G g G g G g G…
A a A a A a A…
B b B b B b B…

Another favourite, if I don’t have much warmup time this might be my only warmup.

NO tonguing, embouchure control only, one continous breath (taking breaths as needed but not using the taking of a breath as a way to avoid doing transitions)

D E D F# D G D A D B D c D d (closed) D e D f# D g D a D b D…

Or this one as an only warmup, just play Bottom D as quietly as possible, increase volume to as loud as possible, and back to as quiet as possible, on a single breath.

The crucial thing is to keep the pitch exactly the same the whole time. If in doubt watch an electronic tuner keeping the needle straight up.

I find this improves everything including the high notes, which seems nonintuitive.

7

All of the flutes I’ve owned played the second octave D easily without venting the C-hole. (Mostly 19th C flutes, but also a couple modern ones.) Any difficulties I had were minimal, and probably due to my own embouchure shortcomings. Playing in the third register and the famous harmonic exercises are great ways to shape and improve embouchure.

I can’t vouch for all flutes, and the approved venting is definitely what most teacher recommend.

I do notice perhaps, that as I’ve increased the tempo of my playing the D note can be a little sluggish to sound. Using the venting option makes the attack faster.

8

I’ve had the opportunity to own a bunch of modern simple system flutes and try out a fair number of other peoples’ flutes. Among these I’ve owned several Copley D flutes in both wood and Delrin (still own one) and have tried at least 3 others. I concur with Jonathan (Paddler): Copley flutes have no unusual playing characteristics with regards to vented/non-vented 2nd register D playing/response, or otherwise. They are certainly among the most beginner friendly flutes one could own.

Do you have the oval embouchure cut or the more rectangle cut? For some, the embouchure hole shape can initially cause problems if you are switching from one to the other, though I doubt that’s the problem here, but it’s worth mentioning as part of the differential diagnosis.

I do agree with others that this sounds like an embouchure development issue and I would guess one or more of the following is to blame:

  1. Your (lip) embouchure aperture is too large and/or the wrong shape.
  2. Not adjusting airstream angle for each register.
  3. Simply blowing harder to jump register, usually in conjunction with #2, and/or over tightening the lips.
  4. Not directing your airstream to the ideal place on the embouchure edge (too far left or right) and/or hitting that spot with the flute or your head/lips not parallel to the embouchure edge. Yes, there are photos and videos of great players who break this “rule” and make it work, but it’s probably not a good place to start if one is having difficulty.

I also agree others that venting the top hole is the recommended proceeding for best tone and intonation on 2nd register D, but in practice, on “most” modern simple flutes it shouldn’t be necessary unless you are extremely sensitive to pitch and note to note tonality, particularly in fast tunes.

Still, if you are in the early stages of learning to play the flute (first few years), might as well train yourself to vent now as it may come in useful in the future, say for getting the optimum tone, tuning, and volume when recording, though people seems to be fixing everything in post these days. I suppose it won’t be long before Logic and Pro tools have AI integration that allows you to simply upload your flute track and use the voice command “make me sound great!” Or perfect, or like fill in the blank with your favorite player’s name. Just a matter of time before the software can’t automatically take your solo flute track and adjust everything from tone, intonation, dynamic variation, and rhythmic timing and variation to emulate virtually any player you can feed into the AI to train it. Pretty grim. But I digress.

Whistles are a bit different with regards to venting than flutes as some whistles can really need a significant additional breath pressure to jump octaves without venting, which often leads to an unnecessary increase in volume right where you don’t want it. Another good reason to get in the habit of venting.

All of that said, there’s certainly a case to be made for venting only when it’s more or less needed on the flute, as most of the time nobody is going to notice one way or another, and keeping the top finger down just makes things easier, quicker, etc.

Either way, regular use of some of the embouchure exercises already listed should help resolve your issues: Long tones, D,d,d’, E,e,e’, etc. Suggest you read this thread where Brad made the exercise recommendation that was referenced earlier in this thread, as there are some interesting details as the thread developed. Geeze 2004, where does the time go :astonished: :swear:

9

I’m sitting here with a Copley, an Olwell (Pratten), and a Thompson (student) flute. Don’t a massive difference in the unvented high D with the Copley vs the others, which I’ll admit to using as my default vs the vented one. It certainly wouldn’t be the first thing I’d talk about when describing the differences between the flutes. In fact, I feel that the Copley breaks upwards into that 2nd octave slightly easier than the other two.

But a large part of it is familiarity and embouchure; the Olwell is what I play the most and there’s always a small “feeling-out period” whenever I’m playing another flute. So it may not necessarily be a fault with your embouchure as much as you just not being used to that particular flute. The exercises suggested here are good ones to do regardless, always good to get the embouchure up!

As for vented vs unvented, as I said, I’m a non-venter most of the time. However, there’s a bit of a “do as I say, not as I do” situation there, as I’d probably advise anyone asking to get used to venting as a matter of course. Similar to my bad habit of resting the flute on my shoulder, which is shared by other trad flute players but is not necessarily a good habit to get into if you can help it. That’s one I’m very much trying to break, for my neck’s sake!

10

Thank you for the advice, everyone!

In that case, I will try to get in the habit of using vented D more often on flute.

On whistle, I’m definitely sticking with non-vented. All the whistles I like the best play better in tune with non-vented D, and it isn’t too loud on any of them.

11

I’ve always used “closed middle D” on flute and whistle at least as often as the vented one.

Watch Matt Molloy’s upper-hand index finger, there will be passages with plenty of D’s where he leaves that finger down, for example starting at 1:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2v1t6jS8zc

In the traditional way I learned, with the fingers sometimes employing a “G chord shape” or “D chord shape” (as I call them) both shapes use closed middle D.

12

I’m 95% non-vented middle D as well, but I will vent on the rare occasion such as a slow aire. I owned a Copley keyless, and my only current flute is a Copley 8 key. Every flute I’ve owned could do the middle D fine without venting.

13

I use the unvented second octave D a good deal–like the ‘edgy’ sound. Use the
vented about as much. I enjoy starting a second octave d all closed and then, half way through, lifting the index so that the note becomes more pure. Nice effect. As to the Copley delrins, mine plays the second octave D unvented fine. Practice. Long tones.

14

Then there are players who hedge their bets and play long notes on Middle D rapidly moving the upper-hand index finger up and down creating a sort of vibrato.

In truth it’s not much of a vibrato. But it takes away the worry of which D to play :slight_smile:

15

I do this on whistle, but I do it with both the top holes! A little known fact is that “double vented D” (D fingered like OOX XXX) is possible on many whistles, particularly if you approach it from a vented or non-vented high D. It’s just a very sharp D. But if you do rapidly alternate between OOX XXX and XXX XXX, it makes enough of a pitch difference that you get a really nice vibrato sound. :wink:

16

Have you tried twiddling those two top fingers to see what happens? :boggle:

17

Not sure what “twiddling” would mean lol. Like I said, I do use this to for vibrato on high A sometimes.

18

Move your two top fingers just like the eyeballs :boggle:

19

I played my Copley middle D non-vented and it was fine… but when I bought a Morneau I found it needed to be vented to produce a strong note. In a fast run I don’t vent and it sounds okay (or no one notices :slight_smile: ). Most of my whistles play middle D both vented and non-vented, but I find I have gradually adopted vented D across both flute and whistle as I focused more on my flute playing. You can’t go wrong with a vented D… it always works and I wish I had adopted it when first learning to play whistle.

AW