Flute upgrade question

You’re telling me Pakistani off-brand flutes sell at a large enough scale that they can mass produce, but makers like Cotter and Hamilton don’t make enough keyed flutes to benefit from mass production? :confused: Pakistani flutes must sell better than I thought.

Not to mention the fact that several makers could mass produce together and have an even better economy of scale - but I suppose I’m dreaming at this point.

Furthermore, to my knowledge, most makers of high-end flutes have no interest in getting into mass-production. They like using traditional methods to make their flutes precisely how they want them, and enjoy dealing with customers who appreciate a high quality, hand made instrument.

If this is true, it sorta cuts against your whole “they have to do it this way, there’s no choice” point. It sounds like you’re saying there is a choice, but makers generally choose to use an extremely labor-intensive method that they barely profit from, for the sake of tradition. That’s awesome, good for them. But I’d still prefer something I can actually afford.

So advanced players don’t like playing your flute. Sounds like you are agreeing with me. > :poke:

First of all, I said that some advanced players don’t like playing it - and some do. As I mentioned before, it seems to be a very polarizing instrument, and I don’t know why. People tell me it takes a “weird” embouchure…but most of those people play Pratten flutes with larger embouchure holes. And at least one really excellent player told me he loves M&E polymer flutes (I believe he has a 6-key version, just like me), and he had no issues with my flute when he tried it out. But another equally fantastic player told me he doesn’t like it very much, and I should upgrade. So I have no idea what to think at this point.

Second, I specifically said the problem people have is not with the keys (except one person mentioned the stretch was bad, which is a matter of preference). So I don’t know what your point is.

At any rate, the flute definitely doesn’t have any of the issues you mentioned that plague Pakistani flutes. The keys all seal properly, none of them are wobbly, the tension is fine, etc.

If you want to purchase a cheap, mass-produced flute that is totally up to you. As I said, some people will appreciate the difference between that and a high quality, hand made flute. Mostly, that is what you are hearing from people who recommend upgrading. I believe that I already explained, in some detail, why that is the case. You are not going to find complete uniformity of opinion on this, so you’ll just have to decide who you want to listen too.

Going back to the statement from Loren that seems to have started this branch of the discussion, I too would highly recommend the Copley flute. In my opinion, Dave Copley is an excellent maker who consistently produces a high quality product. I have owned several of his flutes in different keys and materials and they have all been excellent. I have also seen a tremendous amount of consistency in the reports about Copley flutes from others on this forum who have played Copley flutes. The Copley price list has not changed for many years, so in my opinion, Copley flutes are currently very inexpensive for what they are right now too.

And I agree with pancelticpiper that a tuning slide is not really an upgrade unless there is some specific reason you need it.

I appreciate your input, and I will seriously consider upgrading to a Copley for the reason that you mentioned. But once again, you seem to be ignoring what I said. I specifically said there is absolutely no problem with the keys on my flute, and that’s not the thing some people dislike about it. So I don’t know why you keep acting like the keys aren’t any good, that there’s some “difference in quality” between them and hand-made keys, etc., when you have no basis for claiming that. I’d suggest trying an M&E keyed flute before you go jumping to conclusions about the keys and misinterpreting things I said, acting like they confirm your conclusion.

You can turn up your nose at how “mass produced” the keys are, but at the end of the day, there’s nothing wrong with mass producing perfectly functional keys on an otherwise high-quality, non-mass produced flute, and I’d gladly get a much nicer flute than my current one with the exact same keywork. That’s my only point.

Notice how long ago the OP dropped out of the conversation. :really:

Best wishes.

Steve

Yes and no, it depends on what kind of flute.

Yes I’ve known professional flutists, Boehm flute orchestral players or jazz players, who take their flutes in to be adjusted once a week.

But simple system flutes no.

I played an original c1830 Rudall & Rose for around 10 years, then an original c1860 Pratten for the next 25 years, and never had a single problem with the keys.

All 8 keys on both flutes worked flawlessly, and I used all the keys regularly, including the low C and C# footjoint keys.

I never had to have any of the keys repadded.

People say that those pewter plug footjoint keys on Rudall & Rose flutes are prone to problems, that you have to put a drop of oil on each key every time before playing, or whatever.

That wasn’t my experience, those keys always functioned perfectly.

You said that, but you also went on to say that some advanced players didn’t like playing your flute, and you mentioned finger spacing issues. To me, that implies that the players in question may not have liked how the key touches are located. This is a core part of designing and fitting keys, which is what we were discussing. So I took your statement to be consistent with my claims. I still do. There are also numerous inconsistencies in your statements that give me the impression that you just don’t understand the issues very well.

You also gave the impression that you yourself are not an advanced player and do not have a lot of experience playing keyed flutes from other makers, especially the more expensive hand made ones. My assumption may be wrong. If it is, please clarify which other keyed flutes you have had first hand experience with.

On the basis of that assumption I did not attach a lot of weight to your claim that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the keys. Without having any others to compare with, I see little to back your statement. Do you actually have more than one data point?

And as I clearly stated at the start of my post, my statements are not specifically about M&E flutes. They are more generally about the differences between flutes at different points in the quality spectrum and price range, and the reasons for these differences.

My basis for making the statements I did is that I have a lot of first hand experience working on, and playing, keyed flutes from a lot of different makers. I mostly work on restoring antiques, but have worked on flutes from several modern makers and some low-end, low-cost, flutes. I have tried reworking cheap mass produced Pakistani flutes to get them into good playing condition, and I have had a lot of experience messing with the keys specifically. I also currently have over 70 keyed flutes, in various states of repair, in my workshop. I don’t keep a historical count, but I can confidently claim to have played, and worked on, well over 100 different ones from dozens of different makers. I’ve had Olwells and Grinters and Copleys and Leharts and original Rudall & Rose instruments from various points in their production, Boosey Prattens, all kinds of different antique American, French, German and British flutes. And I’ve studied the minutia of how they work in order to inform the design of my own flutes.

I can say, with high confidence, that there is a wide range of quality levels that manifest in noticeably different levels of playability and performance. And I can also shed some light on why this is the case.

This is the basis for the statements I made in my posts. What is the basis for yours?

That was one person, and his problem was with the keys’ positioning, not any other aspect of them. I personally like the placement of the keys. And the advanced player who actually really liked my flute had no problem with the key spacing. So I wouldn’t attach too much weight to that. Key positioning is a matter of preference, isn’t it?

But anyway, an easy solution for people who don’t like the spacing would be making a couple of the keys slightly longer. Can’t be that difficult, even if you’re “mass producing.”

I understand that flutes you’ve worked on have issues with keys sealing properly and having the proper tension, but I’m telling you this isn’t a problem on my flute. And even if tension was a problem, the tension on each key can easily be adjusted, as I mentioned. Nor do I see any reason why the process of “mass producing” keys somehow inherently precludes you from installing them with care and with proper tension. Boehm system flute and clarinet makers use mass produced keys that are installed with great care.

You also gave the impression that you yourself are not an advanced player and do not have a lot of experience playing keyed flutes from other makers, especially the more expensive hand made ones. My assumption may be wrong. If it is, please clarify which other keyed flutes you have had first hand experience with.

Saying I’m not advanced is a bit of an understatement - I’m quite bad, actually. But I don’t see why that means I can’t have a valid opinion on key spacing, which is just a matter of basic comfort. The spacing is perfect for me, and I can access every note easily. I’m bad because of my poor embouchure and weak tone, not because I have difficulty using the keys.

And yeah, I’ve tried plenty of other flutes (just borrowing them for a second, mind you), and their keys don’t feel very different to me. In some cases, I like my keys better than theirs. So yeah, I see your point, but I still wouldn’t judge M&E’s keys until you’ve tried them yourself.

This is the basis for the statements I made in my posts. What is the basis for yours?

The fact that I’ve actually tried the keys, and they work exactly as I want them to. You haven’t tried them, so you can’t really know if you’d like them or not.

Look, you could be 100% right. Maybe when I get more advanced, I’ll decide the keys on my M&E suck. Maybe the advanced player I met who likes M&Es is just an outlier. Maybe M&E really does compromise quality with how it installs keys. But I think you’re being awfully dismissive and assuming a lot of these things are true without proof. What M&E is doing is at least worth exploring as a potential for saving costs and offering more affordable flutes, and you seem to have determined that the keys suck without even trying them.

Well, I won’t be rushing out to buy an M&E flute on the basis of your recommendation, because (a) it seems to be based on very little experience, and very little understanding of what it takes to make a high-end flute, and (b) because it is contrary to the opinions posted by more experienced players whose judgement I trust.

I thought the recommendations given to the OP early in this thread were spot-on.

Clearly, just I wasted my time trying to help you better understand the issues around making high quality keyed flutes and the reasons for their price points.

I didn’t “recommend” an M&E flute. As I said, I have misgivings about it, and it’s difficult for me to get a good sound out of it. I merely said it couldn’t hurt to investigate how he goes about making inexpensive keywork, to see if it’s something you (or other makers) could replicate.

Anyway, I’d love to hear more about what these experienced players whose judgement you trust have said. What exactly did they say about it? I’m always looking for more opinions about M&E, because, as I mentioned, I’ve heard conflicting things about them and I’m not sure if I should upgrade. At this point I’m thinking I probably will, but I’d love to hear any details from experienced players about how M&Es play.

Clearly, just I wasted my time trying to help you better understand the issues around making high quality keyed flutes and the reasons for their price points.

I don’t think you wasted your time at all. You explained very adequately why it is that the process is time-consuming and expensive, and why Pakistani makers haven’t actually found out some kind of hack for installing keys. I appreciate your pointing all of that out.

That said, I do think you’re being dismissive about M&E without actually trying it. You also appear to have an aversion to “mass production” of component parts that you haven’t really justified.

I think you need to read my posts more carefully.

You’ve flooded this thread with posts and it is still unclear to me what you’ve actually contributed, aside from asking questions and arguing with anyone who has attempted to answer them.

I have understood that you are a relatively new flute player who owns an M&E flute, and that you are happy with it. Is there any more substance than that in your long string of posts?

I never like when these discussions devolve into ad hominems, but as long as we’re on the subject of reading people’s posts carefully, you’ve repeatedly missed my point this entire discussion, and you even misrepresented my point in your last post. If you read my posts carefully, you’d see that I actually don’t much like my M&E flute, and I’m strongly considering upgrading to a Copley, which I’ve said multiple times. I just happen to think the keywork on it is fine.

And that isn’t the first thing you’ve gotten wrong from not reading my posts carefully. You previously decided that “advanced players don’t like playing my flute” due to its keywork, based on my comment that one person didn’t like the finger stretch, totally ignoring the fact that I also said there were other people who tried it who didn’t have a problem with this.

No offense, but you seem to have a habit of doing this. On multiple threads, you’ve taken things I’ve said out of context or presented my nuanced statements in an overly-generalized manner in an attempt to shut down what I have to say. It’s rather annoying.

Anyway, I don’t think I missed anything in your posts; care to specify what I’ve supposedly “not read carefully”? And as for “contributing,” my posts were primarily asking questions, most of which you answered satisfactorily. The only thing I was seeking to “contribute” was my impression that M&E flutes have perfectly fine, functional keywork, a claim you seem to dismiss for basically no logical reason at all. I wouldn’t even be arguing with you if you’d actually tried an M&E flute yourself and detected specific problems with the keywork, because I’m sure you’re an exponentially better flute player than I am, so I’d respect your opinion in that case. But you haven’t even tried it, so you cannot have a valid opinion on this.

I also see no problem with “arguing” on an online discussion forum when people misinterpret what I say in order to form a hasty conclusion about a flute they’ve never tried.

This is the first thing I said. I don’t think it can be stated much more clearly. So far, I haven’t commented on M&E flutes specifically. I have no interest in M&E flutes.

Others have commented on M&E flutes though. For example:

That seems pretty clear. Loren’s statements are consistent with other reviews of M&E flutes I have read on the forum over the years, written by experienced players. They have led me to believe that they are generally significantly better than the Pakistani flutes, but not at the level of the most highly regarded hand-made flutes. There is nothing wrong with this, but it isn’t a recommendation that I personally find motivating, given that I already have a lot of top-tier flutes.

You have reported that you don’t particularly like your M&E flute and that it is a divisive instrument when canvasing opinions from others. I think that is consistent with Loren’s statements.

In fact, I think all of the above is consistent with my comments about what it takes to make a top quality flute, and is consistent with my statements about the inherent trade-off between mass production, cost and consistent high quality.

I have yet to hear anyone argue that any mass produced flutes are at the same level of quality and performance as a top tier, hand-made flute such as an Olwell, Grinter, Wilkes, etc etc.

I think we all agree that they are less expensive. Achieving a low price point is not difficult. The difficulty is in achieving that price point while also consistently achieving premium levels of performance. I explained some of the reasons for this.

It makes no sense to try to decouple the cost of making keys from the design of the keys, the design of the flute, and the fitting of the keys to the flute. The actual dimensions and details of the keys are inextricably tied to the dimensions and details of the flute itself. I think you probably do not understand this point.

For example, if I take 20 keyed flutes from my collection and strip the keys from them, it would be very rare for a key from one flute to actually fit another flute. The distances from the pivots to the touches and cups, the lengths of the shafts, the thickness of the shafts, the dimensions of the pins, length of springs and contact points of springs on wood etc, are all different, and not just by accident. When you fit the keys to the flute (and here I don’t just mean attach, I mean fit the design of the keys and mounts to the design of the flute) every little detail has to be worked out in sync.

Different flutes use different bore profiles and have their keyed and non-keyed tone holes in different places. If a group of flute makers want to pool together to buy a large batch of keys from a third party key maker, they would have to standardizing on their flute designs to a large degree, and this would require a lot of retooling. This is very expensive and disruptive and it is unclear that it would result in much, if any, financial gain, given the size of their markets. If you make your own keys it takes time, and time is money. If you pay someone else to make your keys they may be able to do it more efficiently, but they also want a profit. To make your keys they need to invest in significant start-up costs, which means that the initial outlay is very high even if the ultimate unit cost is low. You only win back this initial outlay if you sell a sufficiently large number of keyed flutes. Most makers are very small, often single worker/owner, or family, businesses, so this route is not economically viable.

Employing low cost labor in order to scale up production while reducing costs leads to lower quality (it takes a lot of skill and attention to detail to make a high quality flute, and that takes years to develop). And the market for our kind of flutes is currently much too small anyway.

You claim to have little understanding of, or experience with, the difficulties involved in making keyed flutes. I think we agree on this point too.

I appreciate your restating your position in greater detail, and I don’t disagree or have any issues with the vast majority of what you typed here.

One thing to note, however, is that M&E flutes are not “mass produced,” at least according to the makers. They’re handmade instruments. They just might use some “mass produced” components (I have no idea whether they do or not; you were the one who asserted that the key components are mass produced; even if they are, that hardly makes the flutes themselves mass produced).

It makes no sense to try to decouple the cost of making keys from the design of the keys, the design of the flute, and the fitting of the keys to the flute. The actual dimensions and details of the keys are inextricably tied to the dimensions and details of the flute itself. I think you probably do not understand this point.

I mean, I understand what you’re saying. I just don’t see how it has any relevance to the present discussion. We’re talking about whether M&E’s supposedly “mass produced” keys are quality keys. Assuming M&E’s dimensions aren’t changing significantly from flute to flute (which they shouldn’t if they value consistency in quality), their keys shouldn’t change in size or design either, so I don’t see why they couldn’t “mass produce” the parts for the keys and still achieve high quality keywork.

I see how what you’re saying here is relevant to refuting my earlier claims (which I admitted at the time were a bit silly) that you could simply repurpose old clarinet keys for Irish flutes, or that multiple makers could mass-produce keys and share them. But you satisfactorily addressed those claims many posts ago, and I’m not making that argument any more.

My original argument was that achieving consistent top-tier quality requires a lot of skilled labor, even if the keys themselves are outsourced and mass produced, which they may or may not be in the case of M&E.
I have yet to encounter compelling evidence, or reviews, that M&E flutes have achieved this consistent top-tier quality at this low a price point.

I have read and understood your statements that the keys on your own M&E flute function perfectly, but I attach a low weighting to those statements for the following reasons. First, you state that you are a relatively inexperienced flute player. Your words were “I’m quite bad actually”. And you also said that you have not had extensive experience playing keyed flutes from other makers. So my impression is that you really don’t have enough experience or data points to be able to recognize the difference between a really good functioning key set and a mediocre one. This is not a personal criticism. I just think it is par for the course at your stage of playing.

You also say that you have problems with tone development and find your M&E difficult to play. Well, in my experience, these are the most common symptoms of a flute that has even the slightest problems with its keys, such as sub-optimal seals at the pads, or spring pressures that allow a slight leak under pressure even though they may pass the suck test, or keys that move ever so slightly when you accidentally brush a finger against them, disturbing the seal at the pad, etc, etc. I’ve worked on tons of flutes that have key adjustment problems like this, and even superb playing flutes can be rendered disappointing and difficult to play by the smallest of leaks at the keys. So, again, I have read and understood all of what you wrote and made my judgements based on the combination of it all. I really don’t think you can know, based on the evidence you have posted and your own description of your playing level, whether the keys on your flute are functioning at a very high level or not. The evidence you have posted suggests that maybe they are not functioning perfectly.

One way to tell which flutes have top tier performance is to take note of which flutes professional players choose to play. As you expand such a survey you will see certain names come up over and over again, and there are very good reasons for that.

I understand and share the pleasure in acquiring quality instruments. That acquisition can itself inspire and motivate our playing.

When we say we are looking to ‘upgrade’ it makes me question what that is really a quest for? My experience is that, with a decent instrument, by far the greatest change we can affect is to our own technique and tone by playing more and honing our ability to self-critique our playing.

Of course a different tool offers something. But similarly there’s almost always untapped potential for improvement in the tool we have. The old truism holds that it is that the result is 90% worker, 10% his or her tool.

Just for fun, I thought I’d chime in on this, though I don’t know how relevant my contribution will be. It ended up being a bit prolix, so apologies to all :slight_smile:. I hope it is not too far off topic, being a bit philosophical.

I don’t make keys or keyed flutes, though I seriously considered it at one point. In fact, I rarely make “Irish flutes” any longer, and this ties into some points that paddler made earlier in the thread.

I make all types of keyless folk flutes of various levels of sophistication. I spent serious time (years on end) perfecting my own line of Irish flutes (aka conical bore wooden flutes) as well as a line of Boehm head joints for silver flutes. In the process of doing this I got to do a lot of experimentation with all the different ways that a maker can work to both enhance their efficiency and increase quality and consistency (and as paddler points out, consistency is one of the most difficult things to achieve and takes a lot of practice and dedication).

So I got really very skilled at making good quality conical bore flutes very efficiently, but I ended up stopping. Why? Because it was simply not as profitable as making many of the other flutes in my catalog. It didn’t make sense for me to put the time in on these flutes when my time could be more profitably spent on other types of flutes. This realization underlines another point that was made earlier in the thread, and that is that many of the better makers working in the ITM market are doing it more for love than for money, so they are willing to make themselves more accessible to that market.

When someone like Dave Copley can offer a high quality keyless flute for around 1K, that is remarkable to me. And as I say, I got really efficient at making the equivalent instrument. I did the math (based upon what I expected to be paid for my time) and determined for the exact same flute I would charge at least 2K (and this is not because I’m slow, and certainly not because I can make it better than Dave). Needless to say, most players would run screaming at that price point! That’s because they can already get something like a Copley, an Olwell, or any number of other excellent flutes for less, and that is possible because those makers are already making their flutes as affordable as they feel they can. No one gets into flute making because they aspire to wealth.

I recently read Jem Hammond’s review of a line of Pakistani made flutes, and it underlined many of the problems of inexpensive, mass-produced instruments. Mass production is something that can yield a wide range of results, from really good to total junk, depending upon scale and investment. One of the reason that mass-produced key work can be done well by manufacturers of Boehm flutes, or clarinets and the like is because these manufacturers are typically making a ton of them, with a huge up-front investment. They can do this because the size of their market justifies it. I’m pretty much just restating what paddler already said on this subject. But I’ve contracted with a machinist in the past to mass-manufacture some parts for me (these were various metal gizmos that I was using for my Boehm head joints), and I can attest that this can be very costly. The design, the set-up and execution is quite involved. If a maker is going to do something like mass-produced keys, the point of the exercise would be to save themselves physical labor and ideally make their flutes more affordable, and for that to work there has to be some bulk buying involved. The smaller the batch, the higher the cost. For a solo maker that can be a pretty huge speculation, so I doubt if very many make the attempt.

In any case, the market would have to be large enough to justify this, and I don’t think the ITM market is or ever will be that big. I don’t know what the population of ITM flute players is, but compared to players of orchestral instruments (Boehm flute, clarinet, etc.) it is tiny. Boehm flute players…they are everywhere. I heard from a Japanese flute tech (who has been involved Japan’s equivalent of the National Flute Association) that there are something like a million Boehm flute players in Japan alone. That’s just Japan. :open_mouth: This is a market that justifies mass-production.

Anyway, coming back around to the subject of key-making, I looked into a bit and got a sense of what was involved and I ran screaming! :wink:. It is insanely skilled work—virtually another entire discipline—and it is absolutely a love-over-money type of endeavor. When I see makers selling a six keyed flute for 3-4K (or less) I’m staggered. That seems soooo inexpensive to me given the labor and skill involved. I’d charge you 10K at least :wink:. And this is not because I’m some greedy maker who covets money (again, wrong choice of profession), but simply because I’m a craftsman who has a sense of the skill and labor involved in executing that type of work. And because I’m not deeply immersed in ITM I’m coming from a different perspective, which is practicality over love (though I do enjoy making conical bore flutes).

My impression of the Pakistani manufacturers is that they are in this solely as a practical, money-making endeavor, utilizing cheap labor and shoddy methods full of short cuts to increase profit. If they mass produce something like keys, my guess is that their mass production is full of similar shortcuts that will translate to inferior quality. In short, they don’t “love” what they are doing, any more than someone manufacturing widgets loves that. It’s just a job. And even if they get close to making a serviceable flute, they are still a long, long way from making a really top quality instrument. And as paddler mentioned, it takes a lot of effort and commitment to push that final 1% to hit the quality ceiling of what is possible with these flutes. Almost all of the skill and labor is focused on that final 1%, and the only makers who are going to do that are highly motivated, either by a deep love of the craft and/or an innate sense of perfectionism that transcends an interest in profit.

I have a Patrick Olwell keyless flute here (on extended loan from a customer of mine) and I’m routinely amazed by how friggin’ good it is. I’ve crawled though that thing with a flashlight, t-gauges, micrometers, etc. and made a study of its physical structure and design, but I still can’t measure what it is that gives it that extra bit of mojo. I think it is all down to attention to very tiny details, so nuanced as to defy measurement. That’s what someone is paying for—that tiny, nearly invisible final 1% (or less) that takes it to the next level, and that is very fussy work.

I watched a video of Patrick Von Huene doing the finish work on voicing a recorder. These recorders have many aspects of their production done on a (relatively) mass scale, though not like you’d see at someplace like Yamaha. And even that aspect of manufacture takes a lot of skill and attention to detail. But once the recorder is nearly complete, he sits down and does the critical finishing touches, and I loved watching that. This guy is insanely skilled at what he does and you can tell how much love and attention goes into the final product. I expect his stuff is going to cost more than factory produced instruments, but my guess is that it is well worth the extra cost (and looking through his catalog, I think his work is priced very modestly).

All this to say that I think a lot of the time, the end user of a fine instrument doesn’t necessarily have a good grasp of what is involved in making them. I’ve known talented players who have a lot of skill but haven’t really surveyed and compared the better quality instruments, contenting themselves with something a bit more middle of the road. They haven’t been able to really do a deep dive and contrast the best flutes to those that are just solidly “good”. They see the price difference and they balk at the cost of the higher end flutes, and they don’t see the sense of it. They say, “My $400 Irish flute does just fine, why would I pay $1800 for the same thing?”. Well, of course they are not the same thing, but they won’t know that until they have enough experience and exposure to various instruments to actually make an accurate judgement.

The keys all seal perfectly. I know this because I’ve tested this extensively, and also because very experienced players have told me there is no problem with the seal of the keys when I’ve asked them about it. Also, when I hand my flute to an experienced player, they usually have no problem getting a booming bell note out of it. So no, your suspicion is incorrect.

I’ll also say this (hopefully for the last time): I may be fairly bad at the flute, but I don’t think I’m so bad that I can’t judge whether keys are ergonomic and functional. And my opinion is certainly more valuable than that of someone who has never played the flute at all.

Yes, and getting back to the main topic here, I agree that any high quality musical instrument will have untapped potential. But sometimes the quality one is looking for actually is in a particular instrument, and not in spending years working with the instrument one already has.

I started on a very good keyless Windward flute. After a few years, I was starting to play tunes where keys would good to have, so I bought a high end 8-keyed flute and played that for another few years. My next “upgrade” was an impulse purchase when I had some money to spare – a Peter Noy 8-key that came on the used market. I was curious to try a design with slightly larger bore and finger holes.

The minute I picked up the Noy for a first try after it arrived, the difference in tone was significant, with a nice buzzy edge that was easier to achieve with minimal effort compared to my previous flute. Nothing changed in my technique. It was an immediate difference in playing a different flute. So this Noy is now my flute. I’ve stopped looking for upgrades.

Terry McGee has consistently made the point that you have to find a flute that fits you because we’re all different, with different embouchures, and unlike the Boehm flute world these “Irish” flutes are not made to a rigidly standardized pattern. Key layouts are different, tone hole spacing can be different, embouchure cuts can be different. It’s difficult on the customer side, because good flutes are expensive due to the points made here about skill, precision, and time, and we can’t just walk into a local music store to try several. I feel that got lucky finding a flute that best fits me on only the third try.

Yes, This, and to quote legendary guitar and mandolin maker Bill Collings on the subject:

“Finishing things is always hard.”

Also, a quote from Patrick Von Huene upon looking at another maker’s instrument that came into the shop for servicing:

“FINISH IT!!”

He was making the point that the maker could have produced a much better instrument but chose not to put in the extra work.

That said it’s more like the last true 10% rather than 1%, by which I mean that even when many makers feel they are 1% away from optimal they are actually still an additional 9% away, and that entire final 10% is what separates the exceptional instruments from the rest. However, it’s actually that extra 10% (or more) at nearly every step of the process that results in the superior product, not simply doing an extra 10% more finishing work at the very end, but I’m sure you (Geoffrey) and Paddler know this, I simply state it for the non-makers.

I have a Patrick Olwell keyless flute here (on extended loan from a customer of mine) and I’m routinely amazed by how friggin’ good it is. I’ve crawled though that thing with a flashlight, t-gauges, micrometers, etc. and made a study of its physical structure and design, but I still can’t measure what it is that gives it that extra bit of mojo. I think it is all down to attention to very tiny details, so nuanced as to defy measurement. That’s what someone is paying for—that tiny, nearly invisible final 1% (or less) that takes it to the next level, and that is very fussy work.

Again, I agree.

I watched a video of Patrick Von Huene doing the finish work on voicing a recorder. These recorders have many aspects of their production done on a (relatively) mass scale

When I was there it was mostly just Patrick and I working in the shop on production, occasionally we had a part-timer. We did sub out most of the sanding, and there were professional players who came in to make notes for Patrick on the tuning and playability, which he would then adjust further, after already have tuned and voiced the instrument initially. However just so people get an accurate picture, aside from some of the sanding, it was primarily just 2 people making the instruments: Me, using manual machines (no CNC) to do about the first 85% of the work, and Patrick doing the final 15% or so - the final carving of the window, labium and windway, then the final tuning and voicing process. Point being, it’s a small scale, hand made production shop, even if some aspects, like turning, are often done 50-100 pieces at a time.

This guy is insanely skilled at what he does and you can tell how much love and attention goes into the final product. I expect his stuff is going to cost more than factory produced instruments, but my guess is that it is well worth the extra cost (and looking through his catalog, I think his work is priced very modestly).

Without a doubt.

All this to say that I think a lot of the time, the end user of a fine instrument doesn’t > necessarily > have a good grasp of what is involved in making them.

Absolutely, most people cannot even begin to imagine what goes into making fine instruments. Fine anything, really.

I’ve appreciated the comments from Geoffrey Ellis & Paddler, both of whom have studied flute making and repair for a very long time. It is the art & craftsmanship in wooden flute making that makes the difference, and cost-cutting whether by automation or super-low wage workers is a fool’s errand. Not that low-cost workers can’t improve, but (what’s the phrase) “You want it cheap, fast or good? Pick two…” but for sure, fast & good doesn’t cut it."

I know some flute players who can pick up any random flute and get a powerful tone out of it. They still have opinions about ease & quality. I am not one of them. It takes me at least a few weeks, and certainly more to adjust and develop. That said, flutes from certain makers sing out with power and ease the moment you pick them up.

I think the 19th C flute manufactories that made the best flutes were based on a small-ish circle of trades-workers where skill improvements were developed over time by close interaction between them, the sellers and the musicians. I’m sure they faced similar issues regarding price, quality, time and skill as modern makers.

I like what Geoffrey says about trying to find either automation improvements or out-sourced production that can maintain high quality at a lower price. I have heard about Geoffrey’s quest from others, and here he explains that it fails on the rocks of practicality and economics. (The market is certainly not as big as Boehm flutes, but it might be bigger perhaps than we can imagine… The Irish Flute Players FB group has 5.2K members)

I had to laugh at Geoffrey’s comments about how “friggin” good Olwell flutes are, and how difficult it is to measure the little details that would explain it. Here we have a very experienced craftsman declaring himself flummoxed about discovering the final 1% that makes a flute 50% better than the next one over.

I’ve chatted numerous times with Paddler (Jonathon, a retired software scientist). He has approached the quest by detailed measurements and investigations into a wide range of 19th century flutes, from American to English. What did he say? Over 100 flutes. He has told me that the interaction between bore profile and tone is complex, but makes all the difference. I’m darned sure that the all of the best flute makers have put years into the same quest.

My only contribution is to note that it has taken me years to develop an embouchure with sufficient quality and consistency to get the tone I like out of my playing. I have often commented in my own area of expertise: “It takes a lifetime to learn Tango; fortunately each of us has exactly a lifetime available.”