Flute settling tuning

Irish Flute
1

Oh, you would think that this is yet another of those “the scale’s too wide on my antique flute” threads, but I promise you, it’s not. It’s a weird phenomenon that I have noticed now on several flutes in succession. And I’d really like to know if there’s anything in what I think I’m experiencing.

I have acquired a number of flutes (all antiques) over the last couple of years. Now, I still class myself as a beginner, after 3 and a bit years into the flute, but my tone’s reasonably strong these days, and my intonation, generally, is bloody good, though I say it myself.

So, here’s the thing: several flutes in a row have arrived in quite a dry condition - they’ve not been played for a long time, evidently, and then they’ve been fettled. In the first couple of months after arrival and fettling, they’ve all exhibited the same strange behaviour. The octave has been stretched, with a very sharp A and B, and also the gap between octaves has been stretched, so that this sharpness is worse in the upper octave than in the lower. The thing is that, once they’ve settled in, which seems to happen pretty much at about 2 months of playing, they’ve all settled down to having very good intonation.

Two things make me dismiss the idea that it’s just me being a beginner or just me getting used to the embouchure of the particular flute:

Firstly, I was in a session with one of these flutes just after fettling at Christmas. Jem and Tom, members here, both tried the flute and, while they didn’t comment, I could hear that they also really struggled to keep the upper notes down anywhere close to pitch. Well, Jem played it again the other day, and it was fine. As it has been more recently for me.

Secondly, if it was just a question of getting used to the flute, that would suggest that with some new (to me) flutes I’d play those upper notes flat rather than sharp, assuming that it’s just because of individual differences between flutes. But it’s always the case that they start off with a markedly stretched scale and then, when they’ve ‘put on weight’ (as I like to think of the process of them absorbing moisture after a prolonged period of not being played) they play fine. All of them. And I’m not all that conscious of having to adjust my embouchure much to play the things in tune.

Does any of this makes sense? Are the flutes getting back to the shape and behaviour of their original construction? Or is it something else?

2

You could be right… Seems logical. Certainly one would expect some rehumidification of a long unused toot and that that might well/probably would have effects on playing response. I suppose you could try dessicating one again in the interests of science to see if it reverts. :wink:

I also rather suspect that one plays oneself in to individual flutes and although immediately on switching flutes one tends to play the newly picked up one in the manner one had been playing the just put down one, if the flute is familiar one very swiftly locks in to its requirements. I would suspect that is especially true of someone with as good an ear as yours. It takes longer with a strange-to-you flute, however good your ear and however adaptable your technique. In short, I think you can’t dismiss player-flute memory as a possibly significant factor, though I note you mentioned you thought that particular one played better for me too last week compared to Xmas. It’s all a bit subjective and hard to say anything empirical about.

3

Oh, go on! Try! You’re good at the empirical stuff. :slight_smile:

Seriously though, it’s the fact that the tuning issue is always in the same direction, as it were, and that it then later settles down. But, really, quite a bit later. I wonder if anybody has studied the bore shape to see if it does actually change shape - maybe in a way that might affect internal tuning - when the thing re-hydrates?

4

Speaking strictly from my own experience with several old flutes that have arrived in a very dessicated state, I think there is something to what you are observing, Ben. The flutes I have seen are old, generally over 100 years of age, and have come to me unplayed, and unfettled, directly from whatever back drawer or dusty cupboard they’ve been unearthed. Dessicated is truly the correct description. The first thing I do is put them in a humidification chamber. All of these flutes have needed some sort of repair, and generally all have had cracks to seal up. I generally observed them once a day and returned them to the chamber. I generally let them ‘cook’ for a month before I attempt anything with them.
I have observed cracks both opening up, and closing down over time. The wood seems to writhe (in slow motion :smiley: ) as the wood re-humidifies. Once it seem to have stabilized, I proceed to my repairs. Once I get the flute playing, I notice some further changes, primarily to do with responsiveness and to some degree intonation, but this seems closer to what has been described as ‘playing in’ with newer flutes.
I am convinced the wood is moving all over the place in some microscopic fashion, but am equally convince it would take something like a multi-million dollar CAT-Scan arrangement to directly observe what is going on. Until I hit the Lotto, or getalarge grant, I just have toimagine and suppose. . . :smiley:

Bob

5

What you describe sounds interesting, Bob. My imagination - and technical knowledge of flutes - isn’t good enough to have come up with what you’re describing, but it makes sense to me.

With one of my flutes - as it happens, the one that is now my favourite ‘go to’ flute - the condition in which it arrived was so dry, when I lifted it out of the box, it sort of flew up in my hand, it was so light. The other thing was that it even looked shorter than a normal D flute. Over the first couple of months, that flute seemed to gain about the same weight again as its former (dessicated) body weight, and even seemed to ‘grow’. Is this possible? Maybe, from what you’re saying. I should have made some accurate measurements, of length and weight over that initial period, but I didn’t.

But I also imagined the bore sort of straightening out as the flute takes on moisture and, pretty much literally, regaining its original shape.

A more direct measure than my eyes has been that, for all of the flutes that I’m talking about, the joints have become very tight after a couple of months, requiring the removal of a fair bit of thread in some cases. All of my flute cases now have spare bits of thread in them due to this fact!

6

As I said, we can speculate until the stars fall out of the sky. Having said that, if you are having to adjust the threading on your tenons, it sounds like you are getting appreciable ‘movement’.
My thought, though, and I’m not discounting the possibility of gross movements in the size and shape of a bore with hydration, is that there are more subtle adjustments in the size and shape of various critical areas in a flute. One area that could do with a very thorough investigation is that of ‘surface effects’. Many people note a seeming and transient change in the responsiveness of their flutes when they are freshly oiled. I feel that the ‘surface effects’ in a flute seeking a new level of ‘normal’ hydration, particularly in newly returned to service older flutes, can certainly be a changing value as well.
Areas that might have inordinate effects with tiny changes would be around the ‘target’ or blowing edge, and the undercutting and edges of tone holes. My own experience tells me that even after close inspection and cleaning, even minor changes in the pad seats can have an impact on performance and responsiveness as well. The Dam’ things are a moving target for a period of weeks.
To reinforce my opinion I appeal to what we know about ‘final voicing’ in flutes. I’ve heard it said a single stroke of a file in the embouchure can bring the final touch, or disaster. It is well known that Patrick Olwell labors over this final stage painstakingly over a period of a month or more. Make an adjustment. Go away, return with a cold ‘ear’, perhaps adjust again. The same with undercutting. These adjustments can be tiny. Now imagine this finely crafted instrument left in a drawer for ages to dry and shrivel. Little doubt that re-hydration will work many changes. . .hopefully for the best!

Bob

7

Unlikely to have become longer, as wood doesn’t tend to change its along the grain dimensions significantly with moisture induction. (I have noted some small increase in boxwood length, but I had to do some pretty mean things to achieve it!).

I do have some of these matters listed for future attention, but it will be a while yet before I can get to them! Eg:

  1. The Effects of Aging
    Does a new flute really improve with age, or is it just that we get better at blowing it. Or both? If a maker were to take a well blown-in flute and return the bore to original state, would the blowing-in process be reversed, the clock reset? Can we detect “falling asleep” - the oft-reported feeling that old flutes need reawakening. What changes during re-awakening? Moisture content? Efficiency? Tone?

  2. Blowing in - blowing out?
    There is a view that clarinets have a finite lifetime - that they will “blow out”. It’s hard to see any major difference between the clarinet and the flute, yet vintage flute players don’t seem to make the same observation. What’s the story?

Those and others at:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/FluteTone-Picklist_of_Potential_Investigations.htm

I’ve added Tuning to the end of Q27 above, but don’t feel you have to wait for me to prove or disprove it!

I certainly wouldn’t rule out a change in tuning. We know the head and barrel won’t change significantly with moisture uptake - they are largely insulated from the moisture by the liners, and even if the wood swells, it’s not going to affect the bore diameter. We also know from observation that most of the remaining water ends up in the LH section. Relatively small changes in diameter in the LH section have big impacts on intonation throughout the range. Some notes will go sharp, others flat, so the overall balance can alter quite a bit. It shouldn’t be hard to model that (but it might be easier to test it!).

I think your observation that the joints get tighter certainly suggests uptake of water. Joints get tighter when the socket wood swells but is restrained from swelling outward by the ring, or when tenons swell, despite being restrained by thread. Or both of these.

Needing to remove thread certainly suggests that one or both of these is happening. It also reminds us that the thread (which would have gone on when the flute is dessicated) is probably now putting a lot of restraining force on the wood all the time. It’s a perfect setup for strangulation. That would suggest to me that, rather than just removing a bit of thread, it would be a good long term investment to take it all off, and just put back what you need, winding loosely. You might need to do that a few times until the flute comes into balance with your particular playing cycle.

Terry

8

There is also another thing that may be of interest, I have no direct experience with it but more than one flute player I know noted this. When a flute owned by a player that doesn’t have a very developed blow is played for some time by someone with a very good blowing technique, when the owner gets it back he feels that it plays much better and with a more open sound, and then it goes to it’s previous tone after some time. It’s like if the wood somehow reacts to a stronger blow, maybe it’s something to do with the pores…?

9

Terry, with regard to your No. 29: I’m not so sure of “blowing out” in reference to clarinets, but have seen more than a little currency to this belief in the Oboe world. Many years ago I knew a fine technician (who in his youth had worked in the Louis Lot atelier) who did a brisk business in ‘re-voicing’ oboes. He had a remarkable collection of spoon bits and reamers in tiny increments to do this work. Apparently he knew what he was doing since his services were quite in demand.
I would be curious to see what develops from your question No. 27. Would you include, for example, the ‘polishing’ effect of years of passing a silk through a bore as part of the process?
Can you whistle up a first class CAT-Scan lashup from you colleagues at the University? :smiley:

Bob

10

Othannen

I think I remember that claim going as far back as Rockstro. It’s very hard to imagine a mechanism that would cause this, or a method for testing! But I’ve whacked it on the list so it doesn’t get away, and we can think on how to approach it.

Quite possibly. We have done some SEM (Scanning electron microscope) which pictures things like ends of fibres bent over after reaming, so I know we can get into the ball park.

Thanks for the oboe info. One thing I think we are probably all guilty of is not talking enough to our often-unknown colleagues in the adjacent woodwinds. The spoon bit and reamer approach sounds like the oboe revoicer was responding to changes in bore diameter, probably induced by moisture and thread. If we express it like that, we probably are familiar with “blowing out” in flutes, except we’ve been calling it strangulation!

Terry

11

Embouchure, embouchure, embouchure, it’s all I have to say.

Had the same experience last night. leaky pad on my regular flute, took out on old mid 19th century eBay flute that I couldn’t get a proper note from and was horribly stretched, when I got it. A couple of hours practice, took it down the pub and all was in tune with 10-15mm extension. just needed the stronger embouchure I have now and, importantly, very close attention to relationship between grip and lip (counter pressure). Not the best flute in the world, it was hard work, but the better for it. No-one ran screaming from the room.

12

Nothing to do with embouchure, Mark. That is my whole point. Whoever played the flutes I’m talking about played them out of tune in the same way … until, after about 2 months, they became rehydrated. After that, they play fine for anybody. Well, anybody who can play.

13

It’s sure an interesting thesis, Ben. And I think it is worth a test, which is one anyone with a sleepy old flute could partake in.

Would people agree that the low D to low A interval would be an ideal monitoring point? It seems to me the flat low D and the sharp low A are very common complaints in old flutes. And being opposites (sharp vs flat), they should magnify any change. So here’s the suggested procedure.

Take an old flute (not necessarily just refurbished, but one that hasn’t seen much use lately). Tune the low A carefully to a tuner. Now play low D and note the reading. Switch back and forth between A and D a few times to really satisfy yourself you have the A at exactly 0, and that you are getting a stable value for D. Note this down in a safe place with the date.

Now either play the flute a lot over the next few weeks, or re-humidify it with the wet sponge in the lunchbox approach, or both. Repeat the measurement above a few times, noting the date each time, and what treatment has gone before. Has the width of the D-A interval changed? Is the flute more resonant?

(Can I suggest if you opt for the wet sponge approach, you remove the thread from the tenons first? Humidifying a flute with the ends bound is really asking for strangulation. Use some thick thread you can rapidly put on and take off when trying the flute until you have achieved the level of humidification you want. Then reinstall whatever thread you want to proceed with, winding loosely.)

If you happen to have access to sensitive scales, weigh it before proceeding and keep a record of the weight as you go along.

Finally, I suppose, we should let the flutes go back to sleep and repeat the measurements some time later.

Terry

14

That sounds like a plan, Terry. My only qualm is that I had been thinking that the effect that I am talking about is at a noticeable level when the flutes first arrive and are really dessicated. Once they’ve rehydrated, they have never gone back to that state. For your experiment to work, Terry, it would have to be some something with a gradual curve, whereby a slightly dry flute exhibited some of the effect, a slightly drier flute exhibited more of the effect and so on. I’m sure there is some gradient in this effect somewhere along the line, but, from what I’ve seen, it appears to me to be a very steep curve - very noticeable when the flute is completely dry and hasn’t been played for decades - and then, as soon as it has rehydrated, not noticeable again.

However, I have only been going by my own ears. Measuring using an accurate tuner may show some of the effect. I have a flute or two that i haven’t played for a few months. Maybe I’ll give it a go … I don’t own a tuner, so it’ll have to be an online one …

15

Good morning, if I may …

I’m asking because I don’t know much about wood physiology. Can we take it for granted that a flute, when rehydrated, takes its ORIGINAL shape again?

Levente

16

I imagine that the Law of Diminishing Returns applies, and that, because of it, a long-dead flute would show the greatest and fastest result. It would be hard to believe though that the effect (if it exists) is limited to only long-dead flutes. Still, I can easily lay my hands on a long-dead flute, so I guess I have a certain responsibility …

However, I have only been going by my own ears. Measuring using an accurate tuner may show some of the effect. I have a flute or two that i haven’t played for a few months. Maybe I’ll give it a go … I don’t own a tuner, so it’ll have to be an online one …

http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/soft/TUNER_E306.zip

Terry

17

Hi Levente

No, I don’t think we can take it for granted. I think we can safely assume it will head back a considerable way in the original direction, but whether it makes it all the way I’m not sure if anyone knows, or indeed how we could find out.

We can probably be pretty sure that if the ends of sections are constrained by thread, the areas under the thread won’t fully restore. An interesting question I’m still struggling with is what happens to the section between two threaded tenons.

If I carry out the experiment, I’d remove any thread, and take some physical measurements before and after to see what really happens.

Terry