'Floating' leather pads when raised on card?

Irish Flute
1

Hi there-
I have a new ebay flute (called ‘Flute’ -can’t put cedilla over the ‘u’- as it’s French).

I don’t know if any of you were bidders- sorry! (sort of..)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Wooden-Flute-1850s-French-Paris-Pierre-Gautrot-Aine-Cocuswood-/120790581680?pt=UK_Woodwind_Instruments&hash=item1c1fae01b0#ht_911wt_932

Please edit this out of url is silly length/doesn’t wrap.

It’s lovely. Drool. Typical French, sweet, reverberant,easy low D and 2nd octave; could be quite loud once I’ve sorted all the tiny leaks, as it has to date between 1870 and 1888, so relatively large holes-
have for now sealed up tuning barrel crack with blutack, hope to get it reamed and glued properly- have super-glued a couple of microcracks, sorted stopper, and re-padded throughout- it takes un-thinned clarinet pads very nicely. I feel so grateful to Jem and all who put detailed instructions for doing these things here. Without that, I would not have bought it.
It’s a fantastic grain of cocus, in ‘D’, pitch 440- brilliant. As I’d hoped- but the pitch is a bonus.
Sorry- wurbling on, but you all know how it is. The thrill of a new flute, and the joy of one’s first successful repairs.Wanted to share.

So, my problem is the huge D# key.14.5mm. It’s short, and on helluva tilt, so I cut out semi-circles of playing card (our pack is now short the 6 of clubs, but we never play cards anyway…)
and tilted it to match. Top end has 4 thicknesses, bottom end 1. I have just glued it in very lightly with contact adhesive; all removable easily.
Is it possible to put shellac between the card and the pad, and manage to heat through the card enough to melt the shellac? I don’t want to experiment as it’s the only 14,5 pad I have.
I assumed the card would insulate too much, but maybe not..ever hopeful.

It seals well enough to get a pretty good D, but isn’t airtight, fully. Will I get a far better response if it was fully airtight?

Ditto the keys on the first section- tiny leak somewhere, even tho’ light test and smoke test show not, suck test says yes.I just re-floated them- no improvement. How may times can you keep re-floating before it all goes horribly wrong?

The second section is perfect. Both keys padded perfectly first time. Wheee! More confidence yay.

There’s also a tiny leak on the tuning slide- not the head, that’s fine now the cork is done. It’s on the cracked short barrel section which slides over the head section.The crack seems sealed, so it’s either the fit of the tuning slide itself, or the metal-to-wood upper rim on the barrel (bubbles when wetted and blown, but a good centimeter away from where the crack is…
I’ve greased the slide,and also ‘ovalled’ it slightly. A bit better- but…
When I rotate it, the wood moves a little initially before the metal does-so suspect it’s loose. Woulds this create a leak? If the inner bit is all sealed metal-to-metal, why should it?
Oh pooh. I can’t fix the whole problem myself- could do the crack-filling, but have doubts about reaming it out.

Any help? Nice experienced people? :slight_smile:

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That is indeed a pretty and high quality flute. I watched its repeated eBay listings, but didn’t bid as the asking (starting) price was excessive for French flute in unrestored condition IMO. I would not have paid more than c £100 for it (and that only because it has its case). Even so, well fixed up it should be worth somewhat more than you paid for it.

I have floated pads on shellac with card shims, and yes, it can work OK, though I’d doubt it would do so with as many multiple layers as you describe. But I wouldn’t go there. I’d carefully bend the key so that the cup rim was parallel to the plane of the key bed at approximately the height it will be held at by the pad. Be very careful to bend the shank of the key between pivot-tube and cup and not to warp the cup by bending up its outer edge and distorting the sides! Success may entail some other adjustments to the spring, the buffer cork, the rise of the touch, etc. Yes, it does need to be a good seal and reliably so when operated if you want your optimum bottom D consistently available.

You can refloat quite a few times before the shellac starts to become a bit burnt. Check the key beds very carefully - if there’s a nick or grain-line across a tone-hole edge, no amount of refloating of pads will seal it - you’ll need to file the key-bed/tone-hole rim to improve the bed.

If your barrel’s liner is loose, best to have it out, fix the cracks, clean up, enlarge the bore if need be (sandpaper on a dowel will do, little by little…) and refix it. Not worth fudging in the long term. But yes, even if you have a lined socket in the barrel (probable on a French flute), it can leak along the main liner-tube/tuning slide as the socket lining will be separate from the other tube and air can get through to the gap between wood and liner if it isn’t all sealed up and secure. You might be able to cure it by running a bead of superglue around where the tuning slide goes into the wood (top) and sucking on the socket end to draw it into the space between wooden and metal tubes, and then also run some glue around the “shelf” in the socket to seal things at that end too. Scrape off excess glue and clean with acetone. These instructions would also apply to an unlined socket. But best to fix the crack properly (especially as the wood is actually loose on the liner) and all the other things will follow. Removing a socket lining can be trickier than the main slide/liner tube…, but it is more likely to have been the primary cause of the crack. Enlarging the bore of socket to readmit the liner without stress is also trickier than the main bore for the slide tube… without a lathe, at any rate. This barrel leak will be the primary cause of your weak low D.

I’d say this flute is well worth doing the full job on, as carefully as possible, but maybe not an ideal one to experiment on!!! I wouldn’t want to screw this one up. I’d be inclined to try to pick up a similar French flute in worse condition, regardless of pitch, for as little money as possible, just to dissect and practice on before tackling this one.

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You have saved me.
I was about to go ahead and probably do the wrong things…
It’s odd- I’m fiercely resenting the demands of everyday life- garden, cooking, eating the cooking, getting the business publicity out,catching and deporting house-mice etc- all I want to do is fix and play the flutes. It’s a benign obsession though- steep learning curves need it.

So, here are some pictures. The D# tone-hole rim looks in a sad way- diagonally opposite the dip and nick with very roughened wood suface that you see, is another rough bit; no nick but a dip.
If I were to file/sand it all down, would be difficult? Might end up with a much lower all round uneven mess…is it possible to infill the dip and nicks with-say- araldite, then sand them down to match the rest? This might be safer…one of the keyholes in the single airtight flute section has some flat blobs of shellac, which I left, as I thought they may have been put there for this sort of purpose…

Bending the key- would annealing it slightly first help against breaking?

The other leaking section- three keys, all of which leak after re-padding. Barrel is tight. Two of the rims have a very fine (not pronounced) wavy line around 1/4 of the circumference, the other is perfect. Yet the perfect one is not sealing fully either…light and smoke tests fine, suck test goes flabby on count of 20…Too difficult to do photos with my erratic camera, for now. Will try if useful.

The liner barrel seems a do-able job- the dowel/sandpaper is the technique I’d though might work- re-assuring! Seems do-able -I may have a go at this, then see how the socket is. You and others have given brilliant advice on getting the liner out- I’ll do another search.

I don’t know about finding a super-cheap anything for repair practice on ebay these days- since I got flute-bitten, in September, anyway- even horribly mutilated jobs with emb. cracks seem to go for silly prices- If that German seller with the massive sad-instrument clearing-house would price reasonably…and re; hopeful sellers- have you seen the recent Mollenhauer-Fulda!!! Oy. It is to laugh.

Update on the F flute -and yet another question (oh no, he thinks… :slight_smile: ); My F flute is working- thanks to all the amazing advice, I have finally got a fully airtight stopper (also on Flute). Was not getting anywhere with horrible old low-quality wine bottle corks, so invested in some really good new ones- and cut a bit larger. So much easier to work, and the first one I made did the job. Got it to within 2mm tolerance, took about an hour. I seriously recommend people to start with a good cork. Some decent tools like a digital vernier and really strong head-torch don’t hurt, either.

The (never re-done) top tenon joint has now got too loose to work properly- using temp PTFE- are the corking sheets from Windcraft any good, and what thickness should I get? Inside diam 15.2mm, outside 20.8, depth of cork inset unknown…
Also, what glue would you recommend?

I mentioned the spare little, possibly 80 yr old leather discs found in the head- I re-padded the top key with one of these- it works really well! I suppose it must have hardened a bit- wish I knew what sort of leather they used for a flat flap key, back then.Would be nice to use simple discs- though not if they seal less wel… The 30 yr old modern pads, though not used much, are still sort-of flexible, but must surely have stiffened with time- plan to re-pad F flute throughout when Gautrot is done and there is something to play…

Last query- back to Gautrot- how would you get worked-in blutack out of the barrel crack?!!
Thanks- and be happy. Well-willing and things.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44215814/Dsharp%201.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44215814/Dsharp%202.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44215814/Dsharp%203.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44215814/slide%20barrel%20crack.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44215814/slide%20tenon.jpg

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It really would help if you hosted your pictures somewhere which gives you img links so you can display them here…! :poke:

Re: tenon lapping on F flute. Yes, Windcraft’s cork sheets are fine - expensive enough (but there’s no good substitute I know of)! You can’t tell what thickness you’ll need without removing the old lapping and examining the lapping bed. There’s a good chance on an old Potter that it shouldn’t be cork lapped - if the bed proves to be combed and quite shallow, I’d recommend reverting to the original thread which that would suggest. If it is a deep bed, especially one with no combing, then cork should be OK. You need it a bit thicker than will fit into the socket as you have to sand it down to get a good fit - so once you can measure the lapping bed OD and the socket ID you can calculate which thickness sheet you should get. As for glue, any decent quality contact adhesive will do - I’m currently using a tube of Henkel Flash Bonder.

Re: Gautrot/blutack - for starters, rolling and pressing a ball of blutack into/along the crack and pulling it out again will gradually pick up and remove most of what’s in there, with patience. Once the worst of it is out, leave it be until you have the barre;l stripped apart. It may burn away if you use a hot air gun… and any residue will be much easier to remove once you have the wooden tube on its own and can access the crack from both inside and outside and even carefully lever it open a little if need be.

Re: key beds/tone-hole rims - ugh! (having looked at photos of that D# hole). Yes, that needs sorting. You’ll have to make hole-by-hole evaluations/decisions. It may be necessary/worthwhile to rebuild the worst hole rims. I’d do so by applying super-glue + wood-dust (another good use for dead bits of dud flutes!) to build them up (after cleaning and scraping to clean/key surfaces), then filing and scraping it away to get a tidy, level rim. If the scarring/pitting is not too bad and the plane of the rim is not too far off what it should be (perpendicular to the axis of the hole), then careful filing with a very fine engineering needle file to get a level rim should suffice. It doesn’t matter if there is a small amount of flat surface at the rim - good pads and alignment will seal well - no need for a sharp rim. However, after achieving a good rim I have sometimes scrapped/filed away from the bevelled outer cone around the rim to restore a symmetrical shape and an even width ot he rim plateau i have made… or even to get a sharp edge back. Minor lowering of the tone-hole chimney thus should not noticeably affect tuning, but avoid enlarging the actual hole - minimise filing in the hole and try not to chamfer the rim/hole-wall corner.

N.B. before doing anything to that D# hole, can you show me some pictures of the key mounted on it, from different angles? It may be that that wonky-seeming rim is actually correct for the plane of the key pivot rod?

As with keys, I am often amazed in these otherwise finely made antique flutes at some details which were clearly left rather crude by the maker!

Re: annealing key - might be worthwhile - I’ve never bothered/tried deliberately - you aren’t going to do all that much bending and it won’t feel much softer/easier to bend - you don’t want to leave it soft/bendy either, and you’d soften the cup most, which you don’t want to do! That said, GS keys I’ve done solder work on don’t seem to be significantly annealed when it comes to regulating them by bending. Smooth-jawed parallel pliers are very useful for key bending, though you are unlikely to get away without any scarring of the metal. I suppose some of those padded opticians’ pliers would be handy too.

Re: barrel - OK, lined socket as expected. You need to remove the ring first, then see if the loose liner will pull as-is. If not, you’ll have to heat it, but as you have no projecting tubing pushing the slide tube out is going to be tricky and getting the socket liner out will probably be a devil! You may be able to expand the crack and use a pointed probe though it to help push at the tubes. Much depends on how they behave once you melt the shellac holding them in - they may pull out fairly easily with fingers (once cool enough to touch), or you may have to devise pushing or pulling gadgets. It may in this instance be wiser to go for filling/dressing the cleaned out crack with superglue/wood dust and sealing up the various liner tube ends/junctions as already suggested. But if that fails to work and leaks remain, you’ve then got more to fight with to attempt a strip-down…

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Odd with the pictures- the ones I did of F flute were fine- same provider- Dropbox, public, rightclick, copy to clipboard and paste public link.
Testing.

Ah. I forgot to place an image frame in the html. Ooops. Picture is huge…

I’ll do some pics of the ugh key tomorrow. Must get publicity out…

Feeling a bit thick- For dis-assembling tuning barrel, ‘remove ring first’- ring? where ring? The tuning barrel appears to have no ring to remove before coaxing out liner- the rim part on the down-flute end (lined socket) is contiguous with the inner bit of the socket.
Looking inside the socket, I can see that the end of the tuning slide liner butts the socket-end, and is narrower, so they are separate.
The liner end just- ends. Tube of metal, surrounded by tube of wood, clean cross-section.
Am confused, and a Bear of Very Little Brain.
If I go the glue route (seems a shame), have got some off-cuts of old mahogany.

The flute is so nicely made otherwise I assumed all the hole-rim probs were wear and tear…mind you, the Gautrot co by that time was probably a series of underpaid sweat-shops…

Interesting you thought F flute might be a Potter- it has integral blocks and a bulge at the foot, but no pewter plugs, flat-flap brass keys are hand-made, no makers or any mark, and feels quite old…Rick Wilson reckoned 1820-1850…and possibly German, as an English flute with flat-flaps would have had square touches-these are tear drop. He wasn’t sure, though. I’d be fascinated to know what you think- working pics on that other thread.
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/how-might-a-crumbly-head-cork-affect-tone/78632/1

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Actually, this board doesn’t support image frames or any HTML in posts, for security reasons. For a smaller picture, you need to create a smaller picture to link to. Sorry. And yes, something that looks good in a 1024 x 768 browser is preferred but not strictly enforced. :slight_smile:

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Sorry, Immoderator.
I meant the Img function in the reply options. Not html. No.

I’ll do smaller pics when appropriate- have been going on the pixel dimensions, but left the last lot in a high resolution; maybe this had an effect. I’ll take them up to high, sharpen and adjust levels, then take them back down to 72. (A professional photographer chap taught me this image-improving trick)

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Aim at a maximum width of 700 pixels in your final version which you post - then it doesn’t bump page width here; height doesn’t matter much.

Re: “Potter” - ooops, my bad - misremembering things - no, I don’t “think it might be a Potter”. An English flute with flat keys would not have had “square touches”, BTW - square pad flaps (most commonly), yes, but the touches (lever ends for fingers to operate) would never have been square - I think you may have been at crossed purposes there with Rick. And whilst round flat flaps are not common on English flutes, they do exist - I have seen two R&R’s with them (in sterling silver) - and cork “pads” - as well as sundry low end band flutes, especially one-keyers.

Believe me, that is a (separate) ring around the lower end of the barrel, and it is very unlikely to be attached to the socket lining, either formed from a single piece of metal or soldered together. Think about how that would need to be made, let alone fitted! Besides, in your socket close-up I think one can see the edge of the socket liner tube… or maybe a crack between the ring and the butt-end facing. The ring may be attached to the latter, kind of a washer soldered onto the ring or the ring and facing turned on a lathe, or the facing may be a flange pressed out from the liner (which would greatly ease safe extraction!). Likewise, the flange at the shoulder between socket and slide may be pressed (folded in) from the socket liner tube or may be a washer-type disc either held in place by the liner or soldered to it - it clearly isn’t a pressed out flange from the slide liner (thankfully - that is very unhelpful, but common on nach Meyers!). Bear these structural probabilities in mind as you approach disassembly and you’ll be OK.

Start by trying to work the ring off with a knife blade and all should swiftly become apparent - and you can berate me suitably if I’m wrong. In the unlikely event that ring, facing and liner are all soldered together, if you melt the shellac adhesive first you may be able to start to shift the whole lot by levering at the ring as you would a separate ring…

You are right that there is not and never has been a top-end ring, likewise that the slide lining is (visibly - and of structural necessity) separate - and that is of course why there’s a leak there.

Yup, mahogany filings should be a tolerable colour match if it comes to needing external sources of wood-dust.

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Good Morning!
I’ve done the D key pictures.

Re: F flute- no, I didn’t mean the ‘touches’ should be square- that’s what comes of posting past bedtime… :sleep: I did mean the flaps, and that’s what Rick said. Would never want to misquote him. Especial anathema to an Academic!
Thanks so much- it may well be English, then- especially with the great big tone-holes and emb- what makes a ‘low-end’ flute? Flauten seems meticulously rafted, and has (when working), a lovely ringing tone- good low ‘F’, good 2nd octave, and is also pretty much in tune- bar the flattish ‘A’.
Eventually, when all is airtight, I’ll do a soundclip :slight_smile:

Looking at the tuning barrel end with a light and loupe, it seems soldered (faint irregular lumps), but if a hairline join is just filled with guck: - I’m sure you are right. Relief. I’ll be careful with the knife blade work- concerned about chipping wood. Old-fashioned ‘bone’ handled table knife OK? Thanks for essential advice on glue etc.

It occurred to me (as an otherwise irrelevant to topic thought) that if one had a badly-made old flute in high-grade cocus, it would be an awful waste of an amazing and hard-to-get wood- especially the mature wood they used- to just scrap it. Does anyone ever re-bore, and re-do the holes and keys to get a new good flute? You’d end up with a cross between a French and English flute! Loud and sweet?

I’ll put the pics now- hope this is what you need. There is such a large gap when there’s just a pad, no shims- you can see right through to the other side- that I wonder if it needs a much fatter pad- a flute pad? The one on is a 3mm. the far dip-and nick shows a light test leak, with shims. But the great big gap without shims comes at the heel of the key, sort-of opposite..

And now with just the pad, shims removed.

Sorry- lots of them. I’ve just thought- did you need key with no pad? can do if so.

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Re: knife and levering off the barrel ring etc. - a bone-handled, flat-bladed table knife will probably be too flexible - and maybe too blunt-edged for initial insertion into crack. I usually use an Opinel knife which, with it’s wedge-profile blade, is much less flexible and also sharper edged - though I prefer not to use my ultra-sharp pocket one (a No.9) for this work - it isn’t too good for the blade edge! Also, when you’ve worked things outward enough, the back of the Opinel’s blade makes for a wider lever… But use whatever you have to hand - don’t go buy an Opinel especially (well, maybe do - they are the best pocket knives anywhere for any money, bar none, IMO - the No.7 is probably ideal)

As for the Eb key, hole etc. … Probably the original pad was much thicker and softer and more forgiving and held the key much higher, which, as you say, would remove the heel gap.

I would first sort out the tone-hole/key bed - get the plane of the rim parallel to that of the key pivot laterally (if possible - if not you may have to bend the key such that the cup is not in the same plane as the touch in order to have it parallel to the hole’s rim) and of the exterior profile of the joint longitudinally. That will be fiddly (trying not to damage the surrounding wood and only able to file flat from the side cutaways), but worthwhile. You’ll need a very fine, pointed engineering needle file (I find my half-round the most useful - http://www.axminster.co.uk/vallorbe-genuine-swiss-needle-files-prod22530/ [get your parallel pliers from them too]) and maybe a craft knife “scalpel”. You can work the cocus very finely and surprisingly easily. Then mount the key on its pivot and by judicious bending of the shank align it to be parallel with the tone-hole rim in all directions when open by the amount the thickness of the pad will hold it at when closed (you can of course test that/get your eye in by putting the pad in loose as for your photos above). Make sure the cup also fits neatly within the outer rim of the key-bed and doesn’t catch anywhere, and that it is well centred to the actual hole.


BTW, seen this?

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Good. I have an opinel 7 in one of my Business’ kit boxes- and bought a carbon-steel 12?- the biggest carbon, anyway, as a kitchen knife recently. They are wonderful.

On enquiring into the needle file case, I find he-who-shall-be-nameless has lost the half-round.There are 4 ‘rounds’ of different origins, though. Grrrrr. It is the most useful, so have ordered one from link- thanks.Now need to wait for it before tackling wood-work.I can try and get the tuner liner out for now.

That’s a lot of up-bending on the shank…not the best design in the first place. I wish I could reproduce the original pad- wonder if super-glueing the shims to the clarinet pad, then floating it (having filed/filled the tone-hole faults) would work- or getting a no-shoulder 2mm by 14.5 skin oboe pad, and using that as a shim! that would give a pad depth of 5 mm- probably about right. But the clarinet pad may not be squishy enough…(you can tell I like working with wood more than with metal…)

That Langue’d’oc (very troubadour) flute seems to be pretty much identical. Down to the barrel crack- not surprising. Bloody central heating…
I’d doubt it’s ‘fonctionnant correctment’ with a crack like that and probably nackered pads etc, though. Have to see what price does- flute funds pretty much used up for this season. And I could have a whole stable of languishing Gautrots! Can’t find out how to snipe- though have done searches. It seems slightly dishonest, tho’ this feeling is probably over-refined.

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Nothing dishonest about it… the auction runs for a pre-defined time, that info’s available to all and you’ve as much right to enter the bidding in the final few seconds as the first!

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Hmm. I think I agree, But they should put sniping instructions on ebay so that all who want to can do it. There’s still some sort of issue with transparency, tho’ Not that I’m super pure, ethically.

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Nowt “dishonest” about sniping - it’s a service available to all! It is also the only sensible way to bid on eBay, IMO.

Re: needle file - I hope that link I sent you is for the ultra-fine engineering ones (couldn’t find anything else on the website) - I bought mine from Axminster years ago on Chris Wilkes’ recommendation. If the ones you already have are the normal Pound Shop type, they would be too coarse.

Key-bending - no, it won’t be that much of a bend, honest! You only have to raise the outer edge (in the context of keeping the rim level and tilting all together) by about half the amount the heel is held up at present. Your shimming plan would work for levelling things up, but if you go down that route, I’d use PVA glue to fix the pad and shims in and bind the key down while the glue set as a substitute for re-floating.

Oh, and I’ve garnered your e-address from your profile here and sent you a sniping link. :wink:

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Thanks! Just a quick update- repairs in progress, will report when I have something solid (hopefully a solid repair) on Gautrot. The ring won’t come off the tuning barrel- will apply heat. I’ve ordered more pads do re-do F flute, too- have had it all apart and cleaned up- the brass pins came out beautifully. Weird- one of the key holes has been replaced with a neat round grommet affair- very well done-, and the spring isn’t brass, and is corroding. All the others are in perfect condition.

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Finally, the promised update, from your frustrated and feeble-feeling F-flute friend.

Had to wait ages for the barrel repair on Gautrot- my mad-scientist engineering friend wanted to help, but had to go up-country to play with Tesla coils, and picked up a mild cold bug while there. Obviously all the ozone produced by the coils didn’t cure him…BTW, WARNING- do not have a 'flu jab when you already have another virus infection. He has done this twice now. Both times, the original mild cold has turned into a very nasty one, as the overtaxed immune system fails to cope. I’m amazed the Nurse (time 1), then the Doctor (time 2) didn’t check as a matter of course…

So. He had a good look at the ring-to-socket liner section, and reckoned they had been fitted separately, then spun.
So we built a small steam box, melted the shellac, and tried to separate it all anyway. No luck whatsoever,even using tools. It’s a real shame. I sealed it all with LV glue, and it is tight, and tight with the head-joint too, so that’s good, but not elegant. Now I can do the keys properly.
No trouble with keys 2-5, but the top key is being an utter pig. :tantrum: The spring is sound, the cup is level, the rim has been filed (by me) to even it out- no light-test gaps- but even trying again with (another) new pad won’t suck-test seal it to more than a count of 12- playing performance is ok, but certainly not optimum. More filing…Have not even started on the end (D#) key- the one with the horrible gap- well, have filled the gap, need to float the double-pad arrangement in, but till I have a good seal on the keys further up, I’m loath to do this…

Am feeling very frustrated. I re-padded the F flute, went well, and have been learning some Mozart. Had just got to the stage when you can put some life and refinement into it -even though the odd bum note- when the B key went.It had been intermittent, and I reckoned it was because of the weak spring.
B key was the one which had been lined with metal, had the top of the block broken (niether a problem) and the sping , originally brass, replaced with some alloy which had corrded. That is a big big problem. I bent it a litle to improve the tensile strength, which was fine- but then tried it again- and it broke. It would have gone soon anyway, with all the playing- it really was corroded. Bu it’s a nasty feeling. So, made a new spring out of some thin springy metal on an ld motherboard. That was just a bit too weak. Made another from some supposedly spring-steel jubilee clip. That was far too strong- and not springy enough. Did’nt even try to make a third from some scraps of beryllium copper we had, as could tell they were far too thin-need about 15 thou. I feel like Goldilocks and the porridge- too hot, too cold, and far too cold…

I’ve talked to an engineer from a metals firm- apparently spring steel is made into whatever part, then hardened to give it the necessary properties. He reckons making a spring from steel is very tricky- they had trouble with cold-working while doing some work for MOD… Tempering is beyond us as only have domestic oven…and if we got some ready-hardened, would not be able to work it. One can cold-work tempered beryllium copper.
Another minor complication is that the fixing rivet is worn past use, so we had to file it off, and use JB weld (that’s like heat-resistant resin glue) to fix the spring on. Should need a higher temperature than the melting-point of shellac to loosen, and could use a heat-sink while floating-in. But the too-strong spring just cracked it right off when tried to install-
So I need either an old spring off another flute, of the right size, or a source of beryllium copper, alloy 25, tempered, which I could work into a spring.

Have nothing to play…waaaah. The F flute is the one I can play, too- the Gautrot will need time..as well as more fixing.
Can anyone help? F flute is such a nice flute, and I’m missing it so much-
Yours, desperate flutefan. :slight_smile:

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Can’t really distance-help any more on getting the pads to seal…

Springs are another matter… I doubt your F flute had steel springs originally? It would be unusual for an English block-mounted flute to have steel leaf-springs - they were usually brass. The French flute, on the other hand, would have steel springs and they’d be attached with a screw tapped into the key-shank - very modern! And much easier to deal with, although finding replacement steel leaf springs is a bother - not very much available from current wind-parts suppliers so far as I have found - certainly not at the weight needed. They do supply bronze and phosphor bronze leaf springs in various sizes and weights, but they tend on the light side for most antique closed-key flutes. I’ve heard, though haven’t done it myself, that cutting replacements from old clock springs and similar can be a way to do it - but making the hole for the rivet or screw is tricky - you need a proper spring-hole punch tool!

As for the brass springs, they’re a much easier proposition - and I’m sure there are old threads about making your own here. If you have access to someone with a metal-work-shop, you may well be able to get some suitable sheet brass from which to cut and file a strip to work into a spring. If not, the tines of old nickel-silver/German Silver table forks do a fine job. In either case, you heat the metal red hot (gas cooker flame will do it, or a blow torch) to anneal (soften) it, then hammer it to required thickness and curve, re- annealing as required if you have to work it a lot and it starts to get brittle. Drill the rivet hole before you got too far along as it is much harder to do at a late stage. Make sure you work-harden it enough after the last annealing to temper it enough to hold as a spring. Then file it to final size and bend to final curve with pliers. This takes a little practice to get right and you’ll mess up a few, but hey, it’s cheap!

This photo and the ones which follow illustrate the process and there is some explanation/commentary if you read the blurbs on the photos. (Link to whole Facebook photo album.)

If the original spring was steel but you can’t replace it readily, a home-made brass/GS one will do the job perfectly adequately.

As for rivetting your new spring on, if you’ve filed away the old rivet (which was probably a sprue-rivet - cast in the making of the key), you have three choices to replace it.

  1. Hard solder on a little bit of brass wire (or a thinned bit of fork tine!) in the position of the original and file it down to a suitably sized projection. Then put your new spring on and peen the rivet down to hold it. This is preferable cosmetically and is nearest to “authentic” on English cast sprue-rivet keys (if you couldn’t salvage the original rivet) but can be rather fiddly, and you need to be able to hard solder - investment (not major) in gear and learning to do it if you’re not up to it already.
  2. Drill a hole through the touch in the position of the lost rivet, countersink it slightly on the outer side and use brass wire (or thinned fork tine) as a replacement through-rivet, peening it over both sides and filing off the excess on the exposed touch-surface. (Most German keys have through-rivets anyway, hence the little spots visible on the touches.) This method requires the least investment in special kit/new skills.
  3. Go the French route - screw your new spring on. You can get spring screws from Windcraft, and probably the appropriate tap (not cheap!) You’ll have to tap the touch/shank of the key in the position of the removed rivet to receive the screw. This is in many ways the best long-term solution, but is more expensive to kit up for/needs special tools/is less DIY-friendly.
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Jem- brilliant. Thanks-

The spring on F flute must have been originally brass- all the others are. The B key does get a lot of work, so I suppose the steel? replacement could have been for wear or breaks to the original- though brass is quite ductile- given all the other damage to the key, I wonder what happened.
I suggested earlier to my mad scientist that we cannabalized the two old clocks we have- he was reluctant- they are a ‘fix when time’ job. Hmmm.

The brass option sounds good- I’d have thought that it might need to be a specific alloy, to have the needed springiness?- but one can buy small amounts of brass sheet.
The old fork idea is good, too- I only use old nickel-silver tableware, as I don’t like the shape or balance of post-40’s stuff- so plenty of raw material. Would be an interesting project. Have got a fine blow-torch and ball-peen hammer.
Great stuff on the rivet- it was a sprue. We failed to tin-solder the too-thick spring experiment, as spring steel won’t solder (worth a try) and glue just is not as good as a rivet, for lots of reasons.
Somewhere, I have some silver solder, and maybe some flux.Might have some brass sheet, too- I have one of those dim visual memories of some… Have done some silver-smithing. Is this what you mean by ‘hard solder’? we have plenty of tin solder-
It seems a pity to drill through the key for a screw-on- as none of the others are done like that. Probably, as long as ‘ordinary’ brass sheet will have the requisite springiness?, that would be a place to start, and make a new rivet.
For now, after I first posted, had a sudden idea, got out the box of (new) stainless coil springs, and cut and inserted about 2 coils worth of the smallest under the key, just beyond the block. It worked first time, and the pad sealed to fully airtight.The amount of play is just right. Yay. So at least I was right that the intermittent sealing was down to a weak spring. This is obviously not a long-term solution- though if the steel doesn’t weaken, it could be..but it looks a bit odd. It’s a cheap quick fix though- a little card at the base of the spring to save scratching the wood, and a little super-glue at the top to act as a locater. So I can play the flute till the new spring is done. Hooray.
Yet again, you have brought brightness to the gloom…

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Yup. Hard solder = silver solder.

There’s at least one modern maker who uses coil springs - but of course his whole key set up is designed for them. There’s another who uses magnetic repulsion!

I’ve only done springs in GS, with no problems so far - it tempers well. Dunno about different brass alloys, though obviously too soft a one will not hold temper well and too hard a one will tend too brittle. If you’ve got some, just try it! For hammering the springs I find a small cross peen pin hammer like this ideal - the flat “blade” of the cross peen wedge is perfect for beating out the spring blade in a controlled fashion - of course you need some kind of smooth anvil and to hold the spring in a small mole grip to be able to work it accurately.

BTW, depending on the thickness of the metal in the spring mounting position, if you opt to tap and screw-mount it may not be necessary to drill/tap right through. Have a look at the ones on your Gautrot - I bet most of them are blind.