These two clips are on a site mentioned in another thread, the one about regional styles. They’re recordings of two old-time fiddlers (Paddy Cronin http://tedmcgraw.com/mp3/CroninTemple.mp3 and Paddy Killoran http://tedmcgraw.com/mp3/KilloranBroom.mp3 ). I don’t hear stuff like this in modern recordings, or maybe I haven’t been exposed to enough. To my ear these guys have such a sweet, simple style that’s not like most of what I hear being played now.
Can someone tell me what it is about these clips that’s different and that I like so much, and whether there’s new stuff out there like this? Is it that they put more swing into their rythm than most modern ITM has? Is the swing and the simple approach because they were playing mainly for dancers rather than to impress or to entertain? Is it because they’re playing more in just intonation than most people do now, especially the Paddy Cronin clip (at least to my ear)? Whatever it is, these guys are cool.
An odd question really, to ask someone else what it is that YOU like about this stuff…
As for what’s different, I’d say you’re pretty close to the mark with the other questions you ask. It’s Sligo-style fiddling, which doesn’t seem to be much in fashion these days, but it’s a fast, driving strain of Sligo fiddling, one that I associate with Paddy Killoran in particular - in fact Cronin on this clip sounds more like Killoran than on other stuff of his I’ve heard. I wouldn’t call it simple, especially: there’s a lot of skill, artistry and taste in that apparently straightforward playing.
I don’t think anybody young does sound like this any more - quite apart from the style, it’s a question of intonation, as you say (nowadays everyone’s ear has been “ruined” by listening to other kinds of music, not to mention playing with accordions ) and that wonderful lemony tone quality they get.
You’d probably enjoy a lot of the stuff on the double CD set put out not long ago called Michael Gorman: the Sligo Champion.
One younger player who I feel has a lot of Killoran in his playing is Johnny Carty (mixed in with a lot of Tommy Peoples).
Ah! I love Down the Broom/Gatehouse Maid. I learned Down the Broom from Peter Laban a while back and play that set a lot. How cool to hear Killoran do it. Thank you for that.
There’s also the Paddy Killoran / James Morrison CD, From Ballymote to Brooklyn – I owe a big thanks to Steph C for bringing me back a copy from Ireland. (The track linked above isn’t from it, so that was a nice bonus.)
Despite being a Kerryman who was taught by Padraig O Keeffe, Cronin managed to sound a lot like Coleman and Killoran. He’s still going strong by the way, in his eighties now.
Heard John Carty on saturday at concert, he talked about Killoran and did some of his tunes. Oisin McDiarmada can do a nice Killoran too if the moods on him. It actually struck me a lot of younger players ARE listening a to the 78 rpms again.
Another thought occurred to me overnight. One of the things that’s refreshing listening to Killoran is that his style is free of the modern derivative of Sligo-style fiddling, which is what I irreverently call “American-girl” style.
I say “American girl” because it’s a style I heard from seemingly a whole generation of talented young women fiddlers at various Comhaltas conventions in the early 1990s, and it’s characterized by a “classical” tone, played with strong pressure in the fingertips of the left hand, but especially by the use of copious microtonal slides and a very wide vibrato. I think it gives the fiddle an effete, somewhat precious quality that I can do without. Not to mention making me feel seasick on occasion. (This is not to take anything away from the overall skill level of these players, who are supremely accomplished.)
I always thought the architect of this style was Andy McGann, and that it passed through him to Liz Carroll, Eileen Ivers and the consummate American girl, Brian Conway (only joking, I’ve met Brian and he’s a good man and a fine player).
However, a while back, listening to Coleman’s playing of Lord Gordon’s reel, I realized that the germ of McGann’s girliness is in there. McGann probably took up and developed the style that Coleman was playing towards the end of his career.
Eileen Ivers learned fiddle from Martin Mulvihill, not McGann, although I imagine she played with him off and on. Liz Carroll learned from Johnny McGreevey, who was quite rough tone-wise but a grand player too. He reminds me of these Riverdance pit band types even less than Andy, who played great stuff if you ask me; he had some classical training which showed up quite clearly, he sounds rather old-fashioned in that regard too somehow. Like he’d fit in on an old Angel LP playing a Brahms concerto. Classical playing evolves too.
After playing the music for about a year I found cassettes of the Shanachie releases of the old Sligo guys (Coleman, Morrison, Killoran) in three different record shops in the space of a week, and then never saw them again! I still remember driving along, listening to Killoran play the Geese in the Bog, and suddenly finding myself liking these old records a lot.
The bounce of it all is a big part; when I play with other people I always try to lead them in that direction. It lends a lot of charm to the music, which some people don’t like of course. This is serious business! Killoran may have been a (comparatively) straightforward player but Coleman and Morrison were real virtuosos at times, especially Coleman. The variations on some of his records are as far out as you’ll go unless you’re Tommy Potts. If you like these you’ll want to hear the Topic or Ossian record of Hughie Gillespie, Coleman’s student, who emigrated to New York from Donegal, which shows up in ways. Also the people on the IRTRAD mailing list were talking about these old records and the idea of having a website with archival recordings of ITM is being considered (not on the list, though). There are sites where you can hear heaps of old recordings of Scottish and American Old Time records, so why not Irish trad as well?
Someone sent me copies of acetate disc recordings of Lad O Beirne and Louis Quinn a few months ago, I think their playing more or less forms the link between Coleman and McGann’s sound. Lovely stuff, as you say, an old fashioned sound.
I think you’re being a bit hard on the “American girl” style. There’s nothing wrong with it, per se. Liz Carroll can really rock the floorboards when she’s up for it. The thing is not with the style, but that it seems everyone is trying to emulate that one sound, instead of keeping the various threads of the different styles going strong. Too much of any one thing isn’t good for you.
a) Thanks for sharing these tunes - I’m finding a real attraction for these older players of late, so thanks for sharing these.
b) I’m listening to the Killoran mp3 - and listening (at the moment) to the piano accompaniment… isn’t it a bit redundant.. I mean, couldn’t a decent bodhran have easily substituted? I found the piano backing a bit monotonous.
Brian, the piano vamping in the background is almost ubiquitous on older US fiddle recordings. What’s worse is that 90% of the time the piano player was totally unfamiliar with the tunes and would be going off in all the wrong directions, totally out of key with the fiddle. Some people claim to like it. Personally, I won’t buy any ITM recordings with piano on them anymore. It doesn’t fit.
The piano playing backing those old Sligo-in-NYC recordings varies from bad to absolutely awful. Though a couple of cuts rise to the level of “bad but entertaining” IMO.
Well, I claim to like it if it’s well done, with the right - at least, not obviously the WRONG - chords in place. On these clips I think it is pretty well done. The piano is providing a strong rhythmic undercurrent in both cases and the piano and fiddle are in perfect complement. You could argue that there should be no backing, of course, which would be an honest point of view, but failing that, what other backing would have been preferable (Brian’s bodhran aside - hmmm… )?
For a great “modern” example of how good piano accompaniment can be, there’s the Shetland fiddler Willie Hunter, accompanied by Violet Tulloch on piano, on the album The Willie Hunter Sessions. There are a few Irish tunes on there!
Some of Michael Coleman’s best recordings have very understated guitar playing by ‘Whitey’ Andrews, Coleman was never very lucky with his pianists (there are a few exceptions) and the guitar as played on Lord Gordon’s, the Tarbolton set would be my choice over the accompanists heard on a lot of 78rpms.
The old ireland Quartette which included Billy Andrews, James Cawley and Frank O Higgins had a Cello, which was interesting, there are also a few flute 78s that have drums (with a jazzy brush) and double bass, which was also less obtrusive than some of the piano’s provided, provided an interesting swing actually.
I somehow missed this part of the quote the first time through. Of course piano can and does fit into the tradition. Ceili bands, Charlie Lennon, Felix Dolan, etc. Dismiss piano and you’re dismissing a lot of great recordings. (Include many of the classic ones mentioned in this thread, which are great despite mostly bad piano playing.)
Also, there is a very strong piano backing tradition in Canada. It wasn’t designed with ITM in mind, but it works wonderfully well with it. Though I don’t know if she has ever recorded in an ITM setting, I’ve heard Julie Schryer back Irish musicians a number of times, and the results are always stunningly good…
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