I was asking for some good Irish artists/bands at www.thesession.org the other day, asking what they might recommend me if I say I like The Chieftains, Planxty, The Bothy Band etc.
So this guy came up and claimed that those “superbands” could be entertaining, but can end up misleading me!!! He also said that it was best for me to listen to solo artists, because of course superbands would be misleading. This he said because I’m a flute player, but I asked about good music not music for my playing, I didn’t even mention that I played flute (how did he know?)
When I heard this I almost passed out thinking what the *****!!!
I can ashore you I was angry and if you want to see what I replied
you can go to www.thesession.org, discussions, Looking for new music.
So I just wondered what you think he ment with that, what meakes a man crazy enough to say something like that? Am I wrong?
Are those “superbands” misleading?
I would suggest you get your hands on good solo recordings of solid players. While Dervish, Liz Carroll, De Danudo etc etc are exciting & new - those recordings will probably only mess you up in the long run. If your playing flute
Posted on April 16th 2003 by Brad
I would suggest Matt Molloy, Paddy Carty, Harry Bradley, Conal O’Grada, John Skelton, Seamus Tansey etc. Those supergroups are very entertaining but can mislead you. Especially in the begining.
I’d say he was right. But he could have been a bit more explicit about what he means.
First off, a lot of people (who weren’t born to it) got into the music listening to Sweeney’s Men, Planxty, Bothie Band, Altan… you can do much much worse than any of these bands.
What the poster on thesession.org probably means is that if you are interested in Irish Traditional Music you should realize that the Music of these groups is a departure form the pure drop tradition, or a recent development, or whatever you want to call it. Thing is, that all those musicians grew up listening to solo players, the old-style masters on fiddle, pipes, flute, concertina… Then they started doing things with the music, like adding guitars & bouzoukis and harmonies and all that.
So, if you want to really learn the Music, you’ll want to go back to where THEY learned the music. And that means going back to the older, purer style. That in turn is best picked up from solo playing. Everybody I know who gets into the music at some point starts hunting for rare field recordings, old out-of-print tapes and LPs, and starts swapping private kitchen recordings of the old masters. That should tell you something.
But it shouldn’t tell you that you can’t listen to and play whatever you like.
P.S.:
Some people would tell you that those bands practically killed the music. But again, I wouldn’t worry about it: listen to what you like, and if some people think that certain solo recordings are good to listen to, why not give it a try? I often find that I understand some advice only years and years later.
First, I think the more of the music you listen to, the more you’ll hear in it and the better you’ll be able to play it, and that includes both bands and solo artists, and it also includes local artists, beginners, intermediate players, old-timers, experts…the more you listen, the more exposure you have, the better you’ll play, and the more the music will get in your head.
Also, the more you’ll begin to “grade” what you listen to–sometimes you’ll think “wow! I wish I could sound like that.” Other times you might think “Good effort but doesn’t appeal to me all that much.” Yet other times you might think “They don’t have much technique yet but durn! they play with their heart and soul in it!”
As to commercial bands like the Chieftains, sure they’ve done things that aren’t strictly “traditional.” But I think they are still worthwhile to listen to and learn from.
We have a tendancy to look at traditional music in terms of the “golden past,” and I think we in fact take what the old-timers did, put three coats of varnish and one-coat of quick-dry cement on it, and call it the “tradition.”
So that what we have in our heads is a lot more inflexible and bound up than what the actual old-timers themselves felt it to be.
One of the neat things about the “geezers” is no two played alike. Yet we who try to emulate them all wind up sounding pretty much the same. Some folks would tell you that’s because of recordings and their effect of “freezing” the sound, and I think there is some truth to that, but I think it’s also because of that tendancy to take the tradition, freeze it into a jello mold, and then lock it up in a safe somewhere, never to be touched again.
I know the argument–“but if you change it, it’s not the Tradition.”
I also know the counter-argument: “but if it cannot change, it isn’t real.”
I think some people get way too obsessive about things, you know. The more purely traditional stuff is lovely, but who doesn’t like Planxty?
I figure traditional music evolved and changed for centuries before now and will continue to evolve and change and I don’t believe in getting too fussy about it. In a healthy, growing tradition, things change. I think the main thing is that the music continues to evolve along the same line it was going, and we don’t run about calling Clannad Irish traditional music or any such nonsense.
(But this is all entirely my opinion and I’m sure Bloomfield and peeplj have been listening to and involved in Irish traditional music much longer than me, and consequently know more than me.)
I think there’s a difference between a tradition that changes and develops naturally from the grassroots level and a tradition who’s standards are set by commercial recordings. Those superbands can be misleading because they are slicked and oiled to appeal to the largest possible audience over a sterio or in a concert. So, if you like it then great! It means the bands succeded and you are normal! There’s nothing wrong with that; it doesn’t mean that it’s bad music or that the musicians don’t know what they’re doing or aren’t firmly rooted in the tradition (Listen to Kevin Crawford with Lunasa, then listen to him playing on MAIDEN VOYAGE - Music from Peppers Bar, or at a session).
But at least from a player’s perspective that usually isn’t what eventually draws us deeply into the music. What I think appeals to most trad musicians is the randomness of it, the act of creating something on the spot that you might not ever be able to reproduce. It’s the craic and the punters and everything else. You can’t package that and sell it, though. The best bands give you a sense of that. Bohola, for my money, does a great job. I don’t know that I’d learn tunes off of their albums, but at least in person I think they’re great craic. They really seem to enjoy playing together and it’s like they’re creating something new on stage every time they play. The audience could be there, or not, they’d still tear it up. Don’t know if that’s always true, but that was my limited experience. Gotta like the piano accordion, though.
Back to the original ramble, another misleading thing about the superbands is that they tend to do uncommon things with tunes, so if you learn tunes from those bands then you’ll have a hard time playing with other people.
I think that commercial bands are great. I long ago lost interest in most of them, but I’m glad they exist. They let some really fine musicians live (if you call touring living). And they expose a wide audience to this flavor of music. - That means that people ask yobs like us to play weddings, etc. - But, there’s a whole other world out there that’s much more interactive and alive than what you get from listening to a slicked up recording. I think it’s fine to listen to those things, but call a spade a spade and realise that if you really want to understand trad music you need to have some meat and vegetables with your sweets. That means listening to the “pure drop” recordings as well as experiencing plenty of live, informal music.
I agree basically, but would like to point out two things. Listening to “more of the music” is more easily said than done, because when I came to it, I had no idea where to look. I had a vague flavor (I like that, jerball) in my ear, but if I stood before a CD rack with an Eileen Ivers album, a Micheal Coleman album, and an Alisdair Frasur album (*shuddder) in my hand, I would have been lost. It’s really important to find someone who has been there, who has been listening and playing for years and years and who can tell you what is what. (This is why I think listening to what the right players say is so important, even when I don’t understand (yet) what they are saying, or why.) I needed guidance to find the music.
Second, I strongly disagree with listening to anybody in order to learn the music. You learn and develop by listening to the masters or at least players a good bit ahead of you on the road. Not by listening to somebody like me who is a hack and has done it only for a few years. You sound like what you learn from (that’s the point after all). May be I should say, you cannot expect to sound better than what you learn from, and that’s why you will hear people warning beginners against learning tunes from midi-files or from clips & snips tunes. I think this central, because the music can only be learned by ear (you can learn a tune from a book, if you know what you’re doing, but not the music). Who of us is ever going to play like Bobby Casey or Tom McCarthy, or Tommy Peoples? Probably no one. But you’ll get a lot farther listening to Tommy Peoples then you will listening to Bloomfield. As I am typing this, I find that I feel very strongly about this point.
As for listening to local musicians, there are some great ones around where I am, but must of them grew up playing old-timey stuff and contra-dance tunes. I love the kinda of music, and I love the guys, but I cringe when they play Toss the Feathers. I am just making the point that you have to know what you want to learn, before you strat listening: some local players are lovely ITM players that I have tons to learn from.
Also, the more you’ll begin to “grade” what you listen to–sometimes you’ll think “wow! I wish I could sound like that.” Other times you might think “Good effort but doesn’t appeal to me all that much.” Yet other times you might think “They don’t have much technique yet but durn! they play with their heart and soul in it!”
I would add another option to that repertoire of answers.
As to commercial bands like the Chieftains, sure they’ve done things that aren’t strictly “traditional.” But I think they are still worthwhile to listen to and learn from.
We have a tendancy to look at traditional music in terms of the “golden past,” and I think we in fact take what the old-timers did, put three coats of varnish and one-coat of quick-dry cement on it, and call it the “tradition.”
So that what we have in our heads is a lot more inflexible and bound up than what the actual old-timers themselves felt it to be.
One of the neat things about the “geezers” is no two played alike. Yet we who try to emulate them all wind up sounding pretty much the same. Some folks would tell you that’s because of recordings and their effect of “freezing” the sound, and I think there is some truth to that, but I think it’s also because of that tendancy to take the tradition, freeze it into a jello mold, and then lock it up in a safe somewhere, never to be touched again.
I know the argument–“but if you change it, it’s not the Tradition.”
I also know the counter-argument: “but if it cannot change, it isn’t real.”
Best wishes to all,
–James
I like that you bring this up, Jim. When you are playing traditional music and you “try something new with it” either of two things can happen: You depart from the tradition, or the traditions grows and changes by incorporating what you’ve come up with. The thing though is that this adoption or rejection is a slow process that is not that easy to observe since it happens in the pubs, at the dances, in the kitchens, as well as (maybe) in the recording studio. And it obeys it’s own wonderful laws. Peter Laban is fond of point out that many Ed Reavy tunes that were incorporated into the tradition got changed around a bit in the process, ironing out what we can now see as Reavy’s idosyncracies.
What I am saying is: It’s easy to view those who are critical of new groups or experiements or fads or developments as just being inflexible stogies who want to varnish and fix The Tradition in a lifeless form. (And I am sure there are those types, although I haven’t actually met one.) But when you see an experienced player shaking his head at the Djembe at the session or the Walls of Lisscaroll done in three-part harmony, or the piano accordian player putting lots of neat chromatic runs in Garret Barry’s, there might be more to it than just backwardness and inflexibility. You might be witnessing the tradition doing it’s thing. And part of that thing is establishing what belongs into Irish traditional music, and what doesn’t.
Disclaimer: this is my personal view. I am not advising anyone adopt it; I am merely presenting it.
I feel that when learning to play music, you should listen to everything and everyone you can. The opera singer just might can learn something from hearing Aerosmith belt out a song; the classical flutist just might can learn something from hearing a child play a nursery rhyme tune on a whistle; the old old fiddler just might learn something from listening to the orchestra at the star of a Star Wars movie.
A very good country fiddler named Henry Matthews, who twice won All-Arkansas Fiddle Champion, told me once he learned to move his fingers by watching the flick of a sewing machine needle.
You can learn from everything.
If you want to learn to play trad music, listen to the best trad you can find. But don’t stop listening to everything else, and be careful what you turn your nose up at: it just might contain the one secret that could rocket your playing years ahead of where you are right now.
Also, be careful how you judge yourself by what you hear–to a beginner, the main thing they are going to learn from listening to Matt Molloy or Mary Bergin is that they need not even try: it’s too far out of reach. But setting a less lofty goal and working toward it can bring a new player great hope and satisfaction.
No one just jumps in and plays like Paul McGratten or Conal O’Grada or Fintan Vallelly. And you want to know the real secret: those folks are still trying to learn more, each day. It doesn’t stop, and there is no magic moment when the genie appears and gives you the Certificate of Irish Authenticity. Maybe I should’ve said Bain Sidhe instead of genie?
It’s a journey. And it doesn’t end, so you better learn to appreciate the journey, 'cause it’s all you’re going to get.
I was talking with an old flute/fiddler in Sligo who maintained that slavish repetition of someone elses’ playing was ruining tradition. He said that in his opinion Michael Coleman’s recordings did more harm to trad playing than good, in that they were studied, copied, mimicked and aped to the loss of personal style.
I had the opportunity to talk with Joe Derrane last month who is a whole hearted proponent of fusing old, pure trad with new sensibilities and styles.
If I ever learn to play half as well as either of these two people I’ll consider myself fortunate. But for now I can only hope to get a firm grip on the basics.
I still don’t buy it that you can learn from anything. Well, that is you can learn something from anything but you can’t learn anything from anything.
If I want to learn how to play a jig and I download the machine generated midi-file for the Swallow Tail jig from some webpage, I cannot learn how to play a jig from it. Sure I can learn something about life, civilization, and the internet. If you want to learn how to play a roll and you download a beginner’s clip from clips & snips that was recorded by someone who doesn’t know how to play a roll, you will not be able to learn rolls from that clip.
What I don’t understand is why stating something like that is somehow disagreeable or unsporting or suggests that I subcribe to inflexibility or the need for body guards for the tradition.
Sidebar (not entirely off thread)…I enjoy listening to both the pure drop stuff and the famous groups like Lunasa, The Chieftains, Planxty, Bothy Band, etc. I don’t feel mislead by the groups. Listening to the individual instrumentalist, I notice they play mainly in a pretty traditional manner. The ornamentation, phrasing, etc comes across as clearly as it does with the soloist old school people. They tend to play pretty fast as a rule, which isn’t the best for studying the details, but the details tend to be there. The rhythm guitar/bouzouki backup and the harmonies don’t fit the old school style, but, hey, you’re trying to develop an instrumental style, not a band style, right? The overall feel of these cd’s isn’t pure drop, but the trad elements are solid. (I’m not talking about Flook or Mike McGoldrick’s Fused type cd’s that blend jazz or something with “Irish.”)
To further my point (or drift away from it), (and borrow from a nearby thread), I’m not averse to learning a tune from an abc file. Obviously, if you’ve never heard a jig before, an abc won’t tell you what they sound like. But, if you’re pretty familiar with jigs, and the genre in general, then picking up the melody notes from paper or an abc midi may be enough to get you started on a new tune. When I learn a new tune, I enjoy playing with the phrasing and experimenting with ornamentation, and seeing where I end up. At some point, I also want to hear a good version for comparison. It’s cool to hear the differences, but, I’ve also heard some strong similarities with the phrasing I came up with because the tune suggested it and I already had a clue what could be done with it.
True, sources can be misleading if you’ve just rode into town and fallen off the haywagon. But, keep your hands in your pockets and your eyes and ears open, and things will sort themselves out. And if people get testy with you and disapprove of your attitude, get a really big bodhran and teach them a lesson.
tony
Dude,
That guy who replied to you was right on the money. Just because someone gives you an answer you don’t like doesn’t mean it’s not the right answer.
Best,
Chris
Sorry if I offended you, just trying to steer you in the right direction. PS I figured out that you played the flute because you mentioned it in another post, you also mentioned that you’ve only been at the music a short time. If I may toot my own horn, I’ve been playing this music since before you were born - in that time I’ve picked up a few things. I’m a pretty giving guy, if you have any questions - I’ll gladly share what I know.
One more thing - people who play this music are a pretty tight community, even moreso on the internet. Did you think I wouldn’t see your post here?
So this guy came up and claimed that those “superbands” could be entertaining, but can end up misleading me!!! He also said that it was best for me to listen to solo artists, because of course superbands would be misleading.
I saw Kevin Burke this past weekend playing solo. During intermission I picked up Sweeney’s Dream, Burke’s first solo album (1972) that has been reissued by Folkways. Burke has written quite extensive liner notes and he concludes his “biographical notes” with these words:
There you have it: straight from the mouth of the member of the Bothy Band.
This brings to mind a conversation I had once with an electric bass player about music, and he was quite astounded to learn that ITM is melody-driven. I for my part was astounded by his astoundedness. Then again, I’m not so hip anymore; “trance”, “house”, etc. musics bore me. There’s something undeniably evocative about “naked” playing, but it’s become apparent to me that subtler sensibilities are required to appreciate it fully.
What with complex production being the common standard of the day, it’s not a wonder that the supergroups are so lionized, not to take anything away from them. In another conversation with a woman who sometimes attends sessions with a guitar (classical ), I was mentioning the wonderful CD of session music from Matt Molloy’s pub, and the idea was dismissed out of hand: she only liked studio productions. Oh, well.
), I was mentioning the wonderful CD of session music from Matt Molloy’s pub, and the idea was dismissed out of hand: she only liked studio productions. Oh, well.