Well, guys, have a look on my website. There are some sound samples of genuine mediaeval music played on a double-chanter bagpipe. That’s polyphonic music, not an ostinato bass with a melody.
The website: http://www.wood-n-bone.co.nz
Go onto the bagpipe/reeds section (as if I needed to add this)
You know I did - still waiting for the invoice… ![]()
that’s very ‘Notre-Dame’ of you , Yuri!
(or should I say..organumical ? Perotinish? Leoninish?) ![]()
Is this you playing?
On the double chanters, yes. On the Scottish, no. I don’t play Scottish fingering.
Because the Scottish double chanter thing would have a continuous “virtual drone” already, so a drone is not necessary.
And at times you could shift the tonality by having the “drone” go up to B or down to G without the interference of an A drone.
And it would make the instrument more compact for playing at sessions.
But perhaps a single bass drone might be OK…
The sordellina ha a single drone, in a common stock with the chanters, curved, so the sound comes out on the front side, VERY close to the chanterbells. That might be the right historical inspiration for You. ![]()
I don’t think Baines(RIP) was stupid to call most double Pipes Horn Pipes, it’s just some of them
“Lost” their Horns. The Horns do make the whole Pipe Louder than those without Horns,
so some Pipers in some traditions, took them off, to play indoors, perhaps ?
My Collection List of Double Horn Pipes with Horns:
Tunesian Mezoued
Turkish/Lazburi Tulum
Georgian Gudastviri
Serb Gajdy from Sokobanja
Betwixt and between:
My Magyar, Paloc Duda, and the Horn is there on the Kontra as a decoration.
Double, Triple, and Quadruple Bore Pipes, without Horns:
Croatian Diple
Bandari (Iran) Ney Anban
Polish Zakopane Koza
Croat-Magyar Podravine (Drava River) Dude
My Italian Zampogne and the Croatian Surle have
separate Chanters in a main stock:
Sicily, Scapoli, Napoli, Calabrese, and Campagna models.
I don’t have any of the re-constructions of
Western European Separate (or side by side) Double Chanter Bagpipes
from Flanders, England, Cornwall, etc. Back in the 1970s, Bob Thomas (RIP)
made a Flemish Double Chanter Bagpipe with one Chanter
having a Scale up to the 4th, that is, the lower
right hand holes, and the other Chanter had all the Holes,
for use as a Solo Chanter, or for the Top 4 notes of
the rest of the Scale. In addition, it has a Bass Drone
over the shoulder. My friend Alan Keith has this
Bob Thomas Bagpipe in his collection. I think there’s
a photo of it on Alan’s web-site.
I’ve been working on a friend of mine, to make me an
Irish Double Chanter in “D” to “finish-out” the Normal
style equipage on American-Irish Pipes of the 19th
century, where you would have 2 Chanters, one Single,
and one Double Chanter to carry through to the Back of a
Large Music Hall, a crowded Bar, or in a Street.
Yeah… we have all those same venues in use today, but we have
P.A. systems (Amplifiers, Speakers) turned all the way up !!!
We are so ADVANCED…
Sean Folsom
“The way its been related to me is that after WWII there were less than 10 craftsmen making zampogne in Italy + Sicily;
the instrument underwent a redesign in the 50’s-60’s (after all those horrible out of tune historical recordings by Lomax)
+ the current generation is reaping the benefits of that. Kids are really latching onto it, so I hear. Even so, researchers are still finding ‘one-off’ regional types of zampogna. For instance, they’re talking about a single-reeded 1 or 2 droned keyless Molise-type in the current Utriculus, endemic to just a few towns south of Isernia.”
Charlie, who told you that there were only 10 craftsmen making Zamognas after WWII. I have never heard this and I highly doubt it. In fact what I have heard anecdotaly from my Zampogna wanderings is that there were many more players and presumably makers in the 1960s than there were today - ie the zampogna was a much larger part of the lifestyle. This has to do more with economy than anything else. When the economy of Italy changed in the late 60s and 70s the culture changed. The Zampogna became less relevant. As a TRADITIONAL instrument played as a “way of life” the zampogna is dying. However there is a large group of impassioned people that will prevent the instrument from dying out. But from the standpoint of players and makers there are less today than post WWII. Particularly I think there are less instrument makers because it is no longer a sustainable enterprise like it might have been 30 years ago. The production of the instrument is being more centralized. In the past when Italy had a traditional “sustainable” economy every little mountain town had a pipe maker just like they had a cobbler or a blacksmith etc. However, there are several regions where the instrument died out over the past 30-40 years of Southern Italy’s modernization where it is making a big comeback thanks to cultural organizations and the INTERNET. This would include Northern Calabria in the Pollina, and Reggio Calabria in Cardeto (my new favorite playing style - ask me if you are interested) as well as of course, Scapoli (the scapoli zampogna culture is diff than the rest of italy and reflects where the trend is heading).
Also, what Alan Lomax recordings are you referring to? The two recordings on the Sicily CD are excellent and I have heard some from the Calabria CD as well which is also good quality. All are in tune as well. Regarding Alan Lomax’s impact on reviving Italian folk music, I think his largest impact might have been with the trallalero singers in Genova, not so much the zampogna.
Your Ciarameddaru in Kansas City
@Sean:
There’s no prove, that, historically, all droneless doublechanterpipes had horns and some lost them. Without horn, most of them still aren’t quiet enough to comfortably play them indoors, so (cf. the "NeyAnban-Thread) it would absolutely make no sense to leave the horn again after having discovered its advantages… ![]()
Since they are an improvement, and also, since oldest historical double-chanter reedflutes had NO hornbells (yet), it’s much more probable the other way round: They started off hornless and then some discovered the sound- and volume-improvement by fixing a horn to them! ![]()
So the term “hornpipes”, at any time in history, would have only be implyable to SOME of the instruments described by Baines (those WITH horns, haha!
), by far not ALL of them. The expression “hornpipe” the way used by Baines simply makes no sense… ![]()
That’s cool Sean! I fondly remember Bob Thomas but I dont’ remember seeing this particular bagpipe.
To me the trouble with some double chanters is that one will drone on the 4th rather than the tonic.
That’s why I want to have made a Scottish thing where the two chanters will be set up as follows:
o= where there is a hole in the normal position
x= where there would ordinarily be a hole but the hole has been left off
o ooo xxxo
x xxx oooo
Thus, using normal partially-closed GHB fingering, one chanter or the other is always sounding Low A, creating a “virtual drone” as Julian Goodacre calls it.
But you can play harmonies whenever you wish.
Well what can you expect from a complete gringo like me?!? ![]()
I’ll tell you privately my disinformative source.
"
I have never heard this and I highly doubt it. In fact what I have heard anecdotaly from my Zampogna wanderings is that there were many more players and presumably makers in the 1960s than there were today - ie the zampogna was a much larger part of the lifestyle. This has to do more with economy than anything else. When the economy of Italy changed in the late 60s and 70s the culture changed. The Zampogna became less relevant. As a TRADITIONAL instrument played as a “way of life” the zampogna is dying.
this pdf from NY times, 1874:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=940CE7DA173BEF34BC4C51DFB766838F669FDE
"
…This would include Northern Calabria in the Pollina, and Reggio Calabria in Cardeto (my new favorite playing style - ask me if you are interested)
"
Yes… DO tell!
About the recordings, oooo- there are plenty of stinkers out there, Ciarameddaru ![]()
(One was actually given to me as a joke gift) lemme see if I can find it in all my boxes & I’ll let you know the title.
That 1874 Zampogna article was wonderful. I guess the law didnt stay in place too long or it was impossible to enforce (like most laws in Southern Italy). The town my grandfather’s family is from (and my 4 palmi! - San Gregorio Magno) is one of these little mountain towns that supplied the zampognari for the cities of Salerno and Napoli and I have met many of the modern zampognari that make this annual pilgrimage to play for money during the christmas season.
About hornpipes…
The earliest by far unequal parallel double pipe, found in Hungary in the 30-s nearly certainly never had a horn (or two horns, either). (It is in Baines, by the way.) The earliest known parallel double pipes with equal
5-5 holes (from Coptic Egypt) don’t seem to have had any, either. Their descendants in the Middle East and North Africa don’t seem to have them these days, either, as often as having them Seems to be optional, really.
But. Baines did have to differentiate somehow between the different families, and he happened to choose this (a bit unfortunate ) term. Well, now that we all criticised him, just what would you have chosen?
…as I suggested: “Mediterranian-Caucasian-group” ![]()
Where would that leave the Mari, Cheremiss etc ones, as well as te Persian and Indian ones?
And for that matter the one Welsh still extant. Mind you, that one looks far more like a North African one to me, maybe a memento of an expedition… (The British did have a few incursions in the Algiers coast in the late 1600-s)(to clean up piracy, that’s why)
I see bagpipe classification as being on more of a continuum than specific categories. On one end of the continuum (the beginning) would be double chantered single reed pipes without drones. On the other end of the continuum would be single chatered double reed pipes with drones. Everything else would be somewhere in between ![]()
To add to your “horn” pipe discussion. Many Italian zampognas, particularly those made in southern Calabria have horn trim at the end of the bells and at the joints where the drones slide together. This is to prevent the pipe from chipping if it falls out of the stock as well as providing decoration, and does not alter sound.
Lots of types of bagpipes have horn trimmings, that’s true. Baines used the term “hornpipe” specifically for the types that have a horn attached as an amplifying device. But then, and here is the hair-splitting starting, he also included all similar types without any horns.
But I have to say that all this has far more to do with academic mucking around with definitions than with actual folk music in any of its manifestations.
Oh, Yes, It’s true, the earliest Reed Pipes: Ghee-Ghit, Ma-it, Aulos, and Tibia, etc. etc.
that we have, in Ancient Art, excavated examples, or in written accounts, had no Bells on them.
BUT to put HORNS (Tee-Hee) on this discussion, have any of you read up on the Phrygian Aulos,
sacred to the cult of the Goddess Cybele ? Some of the details of construction:
One Pipe with a Horn on the End of it, and the Other Pipe of the Pair, WITHOUT a Bell on the (Distal) End.
There’s a good photo of a 2nd century A.D. Roman Terra Cotta figure of a Hornpipe player with a Smurf (Phrygian)
Hat on his head, and a Hornpipe up to his lips, in Francis Collinson’s “The Bagpipe” (1st published in 1975)…
It’s very much like the much more RECENT… (OR ANCIENT ?) Basque “Alboka” Hornpipe.
Both of these HORNPIPES are not attached to a BAG, but were played with CIRCULAR BREATHING (Nasal Inhalation),
sometimes ending with the disfigurement of Athena, for the Piper. The Bag addition is contemporary
(within a Century or two) with these Hornpipe examples…intriguing, A What ?
Then there’s the Reed directly applied to the Horn without a length of wood tube on it, at all.
The Baltic (Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia) people just applied the Reed to the cut-off TIP of the Horn.
Some of these “Reed-Horns” have 3 finger holes drilled into the Horn itself…& that’s a 4 note scale there,
which could be hocketted with other Reed-Horns of other sizes, in a large group of players.
I can only tell you from personal experience, that having One or Two Bells on the End
of the Yoked or un-Yoked Pipes, REALLY amplifies the volume of SOUND Energy emitted,
over the No Bells attached kind…think “In-Door” versus “Out-Door” effects on the more sensative
Ears of Our Ancestors.
Putting a Bag on the Horn-Pipe just make the Pipes easier to PLAY than playing the Pipes with
“Respiration Cirrculaire”.
Toot, Toot, Tootsie !!! Sean the (HORN) Piper Folsom
…Terra Cotta figure of a Hornpipe player with a Smurf (Phrygian)
Hat on his head,

ok, so he’s just blowing drones, but still… ![]()
WHOW! First historic example of a THREE-DRONE-“CHORUS”!!! ![]()
Actually just dug a bit through my working room, and - guess what? - found JUST THE SAME!
So the ANCIENT FRIESIANS already had that one AS WELL!!! ![]()
@Sean: C’mon - I know it’s hard to give up a theory one is used to (I am also struggeling to somehow save “mediterranian-caucasian”, but it’s not appropriate either
), but applied to Pipes, the “Hornpipe”-theory just doesn’t make sense! Some of them have horns, some don’t, some never had… Just pipe a lament, drink a Laphroaigh (or whatever Malt You prefer), and BURY it… ![]()
How about (quite simply): “Droneless Doublepipes”? ![]()