A serious question here, what would you do in this case. Five years ago I gave a chanter to a pipemaker to install a key on and to put a new cap with stop key on it. A while latetr I contacted him asking where it was, I was told it was playing lovely and all was well and could pick it up anytime. So I called back a week or so later and said I could pick it up in acouple of days, but then the maker tells me that a membe rof his family had died, so I left it at that. Gave him a bit of time, called again, this time the kids were sick, hospitalised…ok fair enough. A third time, then he tells me he can’t find the thing, that maybe he gave to someone else, but not to worry that he wouild make me a new one! Four years later I get a chanter off him…minus the keys that I had asked for and so out of tune it belonged in Pakistan! Now thats just my chanter trouble…dont get me started on the other parts of my set…
What do you thin should I make this guys name public? I know I am not the only person who has had this type of problem , in fact I got an e-mail from a young French piper, who paid for regulators, left him her set and seven months later still has nothing to show…
What would you recommend? The courts? NPU?
Anthing?
Sorry to read of your troubles
I was told it was playing lovely and all was well and could pick it up anytime.
If he said you could pick it up any time does this mean he’s in Japan ?
General location (UK, Eire, Spain, France) may be an idea rather than name and shame as his troubles may well be genuine - perhaps a member living near by can call and see what is happening
He’s in Ireland, Leinster but not Dublin… The thing is I doubt the troubles are genuine because he’s buried the same person more than once, and is aparently known for his stories. I have had numerous people visit me here in Japan from Irelnad over hte last 5 years, and everytime one of them is ready to pick up the chanter something happens! The last one was in September, when on the Thursday he was “holding it in his hand” but by the Saturday couldn’t remember where it was!
Look he has ripped ye off and ye are worrying about what he thinks!! 
When we (I mean the collective we here) spot a scam on EBay then we consider it a duty to inform all our friends on this forum immediately so they don’t get conned…what’s the difference.Ye have enough evidence 1st hand to justify ye warning everyone to stay well clear of**“… …”(please insert name here)"**
Whilst ye withold this information then some other poor piper is gonna lose money.Ye are not the one breaking any laws here nor are ye the one who is taking unsuspecting folks and their hard earned cash to the cleaners!
As long as ye use verifiable facts then ye have right on your side.
He is no better than a mugger.Name and shame.
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
Too many shoddy pipe makers are getting away with poor customer services and in certain cases plain theft.
Yep. Name and Shame (but only in a way which dosen’t contravene board policy of course) 
name and shame…if you want to do business as a pipemaker, you must conduct yourself at least honestly with your customers, as in any other walk of life!!!
Know that. Ordered a german medieval bagpipe two years ago from a well-known german maker, he told me he added me to his books, so let him time to complete the pipe and called him some times after a year or so. First time he told me he was sick the last three weeks and is just beginning his work again, three weeks later he told me the same, and again one or two months later he told me that he forgot my order and has no evidence in his books that proves that I ever ordered a set from him.
Thank goodness that he didn’t ask for a deposit, my money would have been off.
Not necessarily so…I think we are talking about different matters here.I do not know whom ye are talking about but it would seem that he, along with most, if not all, makers that I know, require a deposit with the order..and if they have a website(again most makers do these days)they normally state quite clearly the ordering procedure,so if ye follow that procedure that then becomes a contract between yoursel and the maker.It also of course proves that he has received your order and accepted it.If ye havnae paid a deposit then ye don’t have proof of a firm order being placed..regardless of what may or not have been said over the phone or bar or whatever…just like most things in life,events and situations overtake us and things get forgotten,especially if as ye say it is a well known maker who will be obviously busy on a host of jobs.It is hardly fair in the circumstances to presume in this particular instance that if ye had paid a deposit, that automatically the maker would have kept it.I mean reputations are made the hard way,by service and satisfaction.I would think if ye had paid the deposit then ye might well have been one of the satisfied customers because he would have had a record of ye on his order book…No I don’t think we should confuse muggings(Bouli) with mistakes(yoursel) no matter how frustrating it may be to ye..
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
Don’t worry, I know what I say. It is quite unusual in germany for pipemakers to ask for a deposit, the only one I know who does is Andreas Rogge and he works international, so he wants to follow international market habits.
Normally, if you place an order here, you get a written confirmation of your order and everything is ok. No need for contracts or so, everyone trusts on the other’s honourableness and it NORMALLY works.
I’m not the only one who ordered/owns a set by this maker, the medieval music scene is not really big here and everyone knows everyone. NOBODY ever had to place a deposit, and EVERYBODY told people the same stories like I did here. Unfortunately I first heard those stories after I made my own experiences with him.
I ordered a set of M. Gaebel/Detmold after that, no deposit required and I got the set faster than promised. Like it should be.
So no mistake of me, just wanted to share thoughts.
There is a danger in this sort of threads. In covering the positvie as well as the negative experiences.
We all have seen people here recently raving on about their newly received pipes and their pipemaker’s customers service while the posted photos revealed what Ican only think of as a dog rough set up and informal comments received from people who actually seen the pipes in question referred ‘a heap of shite’.
Same for the negative, I have seen perfectly fine chanters returned to the pipemaker with the comment: these aren’t in tune by people who couldn’t play and preferred to blame that on the chanter. In one case the chanter was cut short to tune the bottom D (the man in question didn’t know how to play a hard bottom D) and the chanter stop key attacked with a hacksaw, and bits sawn out of the chanter itself while on that job. That chanter was returned to the maker saying ‘you fix it, I don’t like it’. That was the one time I saw that particular pipemaker close to murder and he gave the customer and ear full over the phone. The man then started telling everybody who would care to hear ‘your man’s customer service is terrible and he has a terrible temper on him as well’.
Extreme examples maybe but they show there’s a certain caveat connected to this sort of messages. Posters should be very certain they have a genuine grievance when posting negative and equally recommendations should only be made when a set of pipes is really working well.
But then again this is the internet, anyone can and will give an opinion, informed or not.
Thanks Peter,
I do not want to see any names, allusions to or other identifying remarks in this topic… that sort of thing got this forum closed down last time. I would rather this topic go away, but as I can’t justifiably lock or delete, I won’t… but I will the very moment (even before) it begins to smell like slander. You have been warned.
-JES.
I think it can be benificial discussing certain things, there’s no point in pretending all pipemakers are nice guys doing great work. Some are nice guys doing terrible work, some may be terrible bolloxes doing great work, there’s all sorts of shades in between and there are a few genuine cowboys out there as well, looking for a quick buck.
No harm in discussing the pros and cons. Unfortunately these discussions can deteriorate very quickly.
Very true. The word Lawsuit comes to mind,
however, and while we engage in these discussions we should use caution.
So as not to get the board into trouble, how about I pass on his name to anyone who wants to pm me? Like I posted in my first post, I am not the only person he has done this with but if I can stop him doing it to another I will.
In his favour he is a good reed maker (and without letting toomuch of identity slip he has run reed making classes in Henrietta Street in the past)and when he puts his mind too can turn out some nice work, its just he is also a fair bit of a chancer as well.
I think the topic started out appropriately, i.e. “What would you do?”. Since, sadly, this sort of thing happens frequently, I think that this thread or some other thread(s) could be used to address issues of prevention and protection.
In most jurisdictions I think a series of email correspondances can be construed as a written contract, and certain kinds of written paper correspondance are contractual. I think it would help for makers and customers to both understand what their rights and obligations are in a sale situation.
In my own case, when taking an order from someone I’ve been trying to explicitly mention some policies about “what if” situations, for instance “what if” I the maker am unable to complete the order within a stated amount of time from the estimated completion date, “what if” the customer changes the order midway, “what if” the customer can’t pay when the pipes are finished, etc. Since I’m just getting started, there’s more tightening up to do and I probably should write up a standard contract, but for now I at least try to communicate the policies to a prospective purchaser. I suppose, based on Peter’s comments, that I should write something explicit up about warranty and customer modifications, i.e. “no returns, refunds, or exchanges of items or parts altered by the customer”.
This would have the advantage of making it more clear to all parties when someone is failing to meet the obligations, and any such policy should have clear wording about “remedies”, i.e. timely refunds, options to renegotiate delivery times, how much of the deposit is refundable, recovery of expenses, re-sale of unpurchased items, etc. It also makes it much easier if, God forbid, a customer needs to take a maker to court to obtain a refund.
Bill
Hmm, reed making classes at Henrietta Street, bit of a chancer sometimes…
gosh, he must mean me !
Seriously Bouli, perhaps writing to this maker (registered post) and giving him a specific length of time (60 days, perhaps?) to either post the items via insured carrier (maybe with the carriage cost COD) or post a full refund (stating the amount to be refunded) would make sense, IF you politely suggest that you don’t want to be forced to avail of the small claims court.
Bill
I cannot, and would not edit PMs… they are private messages and as such are not published for the general public to read.
I agree, the customer ought to be well advised and protected against these issues. But we tread a thin line here, and it is my hope it does not fall to the side of slander and character defamation.
Nah Bill its not you
I think that we (the other piper and I) are going to go the legal route. DO you think I should inform NPU of this? Not that I think they can do anything, but it was from their office that I was put in touch with him, (He is not listed in the pipemakers list on line or in their “book”.
I wonder if Terry Moylan and the rest happen to lurke around here?
Agreed. Let’s keep the comments general, i.e. how to protect onesself against and respond to dodgy practices, as opposed to “spot the chancer”.
Bill
Bill, give him 60 days? He has had my chanter for the past 5 years! I can understand if the other piper I mentioned (who has lost her full set for the past 7 months, and has since gone to another maker for a practice set), wants to give him another chance, but really my patience has run out with him.