D and C keyed whistle

Whistle
21

I get it. My question is answered :smiley:

Just one thing bothers me…
Why don’t they make whistles an octave apart instead of a key apart?
I mean, if I can play most (if not all) notes in a range of 2 octaves on a D-whistle, what’s the point in creating a C-whistle that is only one note “shifted” and thus plays almost all the same notes, only with different fingering (which makes it complex in my opinion, but he, I’m just lazy I guess).
I mean, they don’t make piano’s in differnt key’s do they? (ok, a piano is diatonic, i know, but that is beside the point. No matter how you make a note; by fingering, half-fingering, pressing a key of by any other means, it is still the same note). Wouldn’t it be very confusing to a pianist whenever he were to play a piece in a different key, all the key’s on his piano would “shift” one or more positions? That’s what I mean when I say “no point in learning two instuments at once”.

Oh well.

22

I’m really not sure if you get it. :confused:

First off, they do make some low whistles that are an octave lower.

Let me try this again.

The fingering is NOT different. That’s the whole point. You can use the same exact fingering and play in a completely different key if you’re on a different whistle. The point of whistles being available in different keys is so you don’t have to learn different fingering.

Almost all the same notes is many of the wrong notes. Trying to play a tune in D on a C whistle is just fighting the whistle.

Don’t fight the whistle. :slight_smile:

The point of creating a C whistle is so you don’t have to use different fingering. The point of creating a C whistle is so you can easily play along in the key of C.

Try this. Get your friend to play a simple chord progression in the key of C. Just a simple C F G (major chords) or something. Now play a simple tune over that with your D whistle. It’s not going to work very well because you’re fighting the whistle. When your whistle spits out an F# and a C#, it’s going to clash with your friend. You can force it to work with half-holing, but there’s a much easier way.

Now pick up your C whistle and give it a try. It will work much better because all of notes your friend is using are automatically coming out of your whistle.

Now if your friend can play the same chord progression in the key of D (D G A major chords), you can play the same tune you made up on your D whistle and it will work - with the same fingering. But, it will no longer work on your C whistle.

The above isn’t an example of Irish music at all, but will give you an idea of what I’m talking about regarding keys.

A piano is chromatic and can play all the notes of every key in western music. Same with a guitar. However, when you look at brass instruments, woodwinds, accordions, harmonicas, and many other instruments, you’re going to run into a lot of them that only play in certain keys.

I don’t know how else to explain it. Sorry if it’s not clear. But your last comment there tells me that you’re either still not quite getting it, or you’re far and away beyond my level of competence in music theory, and are beginning to get philosophical. :slight_smile:

Hope that helps. :confused:

Jason

23

It’s interesting you point that out, because in my experience with playing the whistle, I’ve come to do this naturally as well. I guess it’s because of all the time I spend with the D whistle.

-Eric

24

Sorry for being so dense :blush:

I am willing to accept that the fingering is the same on all whistles. Even though I don’t truely understand how this is to be. It does simplify things however, so I am glad about that. Original question answered, thank you all very much.

At the risk of being pushy… I would like to understand it though.
In musictheory I have always learned that when you read a “D” on a piece of sheetmusic, you should play a “D” on your instrument, regardless of what the instrument is. And as I understand it, a C-whistle play’s a C when I finger it like a D on a D-whistle.
Now, I haven’t tried this as my friend is on holliday and I can’t play the piano and the whistle at the same time (yet :wink:)…but when we would both play together, when I use a C-whistle fingering like a D, he would actually play a D and I would a C when reading the same sheetmusic… so wouldn’t that sound very dissonant?

25

No need to apologize. I just hope I can help you get it straightened out. :slight_smile:

when you read a “D” on a piece of sheetmusic, you should play a “D” on your instrument, regardless of what the instrument is. And as I understand it, a C-whistle play’s a C when I finger it like a D on a D-whistle.

Yes, and yes.

To keep it simple:

Consider this for a minute. Remember in elementary music class (or The Sound of Music) when you learned Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do? That is the major scale. It always sounds the same, no matter what note you start on, because it always uses the same intervals.

On a whistle, think of the lowest note as Do. This note determines the key you’re in. If you’re using a D whistle, then your Do is D. If you’re using a C whistle, your Do is C. If your friend on the piano is playing in the key of D, then his Do is also going to be D. Make sense?

So to get the idea, don’t think of the notes themselves on the whistle. Just know that the whistle gives you the major scale Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do. When you and your friend play in the same key, then your notes will be the same because your Do will be the same note (as will the others in the scale).

when we would both play together, when I use a C-whistle fingering like a D, he would actually play a D and I would a C when reading the same sheetmusic

No. If you are both playing the same tune in the same key, then you’ll be playing the same notes. Don’t let what Peter said about always referring to the notes as if they were on a D whistle confuse you. That happens and it’s understood among whistle players, but the fact of the matter is that you are in fact playing the real notes inherent in the whistle key you’re playing.

Say you play Mary had a Little Lamb with these notes:

XXXXOO
XXXXXO
XXXXXX

If you play that on a D whistle, you’re playing in the key of D, and using the notes D, E and F#. If your friend plays the same tune in the key of D on the piano, he will be using the same notes (D E F#).

If you play that on a C whistle, you’re playing in the key of C, and using the notes C, D and E. If your friend plays the same tune in the key of C (to match your whistle), he will still be using the same notes as you (C D E), because that’s how you play that tune in the key of C.

So, you’re still playing the same notes as your friend.

Sorry if it seems oversimplified, but I’m just trying to get the princple across.

If you and your friend are looking at the same sheet music. Then you should be playing in the same key (and you with a whistle in that key), and you will be playing the same notes.

when we would both play together, when I use a C-whistle fingering like a D, he would actually play a D and I would a C when reading the same sheetmusic

One more thing on this. If you play a C and he plays a D while looking at the same sheet music, then you’re playing the wrong whistle! You need a D. The whole point of matching keys is so you both are playing the same notes - same scale, same key.

You need your Do note to match his Do note.

Does that help at all?

Jason

26

Lpent, your questions have less understanding and effort than some of the good answers here. Sometimes there can be too much info and not enough insight.

Go back to the piano that you know and play the 7 notes of D major scale and then play play 7 notes of C major scale. What notes are common to both scales and what notes aren’t?

Now try and think out why this is so …

27

Your explanation makes sense to me Jason Paul. And I understand that the do-re-mi-etc. scale is the same for all key’s. But somehow I get confused when trying to refer it to the sheetmusic. Probably like talasiga says a lack of insight.

When I see a black dot on the bottom line of a staff, I read it a E regardless of which key it is written in. In order to play it, I assume I must know where the E is. On the piano this E is always in the same spot (well, sort of anyway, the most you do is go up or down a black key so to say, depending on the key the play is written in)
But as I understand it, on a whistle this E changes from one hole to another depending on the key of the whistle.
On a piano I can be sure the E is always THAT key or the black one above or below it. And this I can see by looking at what key the play is written in. Now what you are all telling me is that with the whistle I no longer have to concern myself with what the actual note is that I play.
I understand that both A and B (and all the others) can be ‘Do’ depending on the scale. For a piano this makes sense to me, but for a whistle it does not. (unless I contemplate that I need to finger every whistle differently but you tell me this is not so).
Obviously I am making an insight-error, thinking about this. For the life of me, I don’t understand where.

I whish I could clarify my problem with a picture. I made one depicting what I mean, but I can’t seem to be able to post is.

28

I’ll try it in ASCII:

Play in D:

--#------------

---------------
    #
---------------

---------------

---------O-----  = E


Piano:
| I I | I I I |
| I I | I I I |
| | |x| | | | |  = E
| | | | | | | |
---------------

XXX XXO  = E on the D-whistle.

============================================================
Play in C

---------------

---------------
    
---------------

---------------

---------O-----  = E


Piano:
| I I | I I I |
| I I | I I I |
| | |x| | | | |  = E
| | | | | | | |
---------------

XXX XXO  = D on the C-whistle   ????????
29

Or another example:
Let’s take “Fur Elise” which is in C

The piano play’s:

E’,D#‘,E’,D#‘,E’,B,D’,C’,A’,E,A,B,E,G#,B,C’

But the C-whsitle (the play is in C) fingered like a D would play:

D’,C#‘,D’,C#,D’,A,C’,G’,D,G,C,D,F#,A,B’

This sounds awfull when playing it simultaniously!

30

All right, here we go.

If you use the fingering xxx|xx0 on a D whistle, it will sound like
an E played on the piano.
If you use the fingering xxx|x00 on a C whistle, it will sound like
an E played on the piano.

So, you can either learn different names for the fingerings on each
whistle, OR, if you like things the easy way, you can transpose
your music and pretend that the xxx|xx0 fingering is called
E on the C whistle. This way, you can memorize the fingering once
and play the same way on any whistle. The downside is that you
will have to transpose your music. This means that if you are
playing the C whistle, you and the piano will have music that
looks different. The piano music will look like it’s in the key of C
and your music will look like it’s in the key of D. But it’s just a
trick you’re using to help yourself out, when you play it on the
C whistle, it will come out sounding the same as on the piano.

31

Yes
XXX XXO = D on the C whistle
but this doesn’t mean you can play the same (mode of) scale from D to D on a C whistle that you can on a D whsitle from D to D.

I have asked you to look at your piano and try and think about it. Explanations have already been given but you have ignored the thought and care that have gone into them. Jason Paul’s and Peter Laban’s answers are particularly exemplary.

Patience with enthusiasm is the hallmark of good mentorship.

32

Ah, what fearfaoin say’s makes more sense to me. This way the whole thing becomes more logical.
So back to my original question.

I DO have to finger each flute differently,
OR I have to use specially written sheetmusic,
OR I alway’s use the D-whistle and start cross-fingering/half-holing like mad.
Right?

As I am a beginner on the flute I want to keep things simple (at least for the first few years), so I guess I will stick to the D-whistle regardless of the key the music is written in and half-hole/cross-finger everything depending on the key.
Why anyone would want to create C, D, E etc. whistles is still beyond me, but let’s just leave it at that.

Thank you all for your patience and time.

33

That’s essentially the case, yes.
Many people only play the D whistle, since a large majority of
Irish Traditional Music is in the keys of D and G, and their
relative modes, and therefore the only crossfingering needed
is the C natural.

Suit yourself, I think it’s easier to learn to transpose so you don’t
have to half-hole so much. But I think starting with only playing
music on the D whistle that doesn’t need half-holing is a good way
to get used to the fingering.

34

Thanks fearfaoin. I’ll keep that in mind.

And talasiga,
Unless I totally miss the point your are making:

Peter laban said:
To confuse things, Irish traditional players refer to the notes of the scale, regardless of the key of the whistle, as if they were in the key of D.
So the bottom note is always referred to a ‘D’.

Jason Paul said:
It’s more about the intervals of the tune than the actual notes…

I get all that. The thing I was talking about was; when you play with someone else they WILL refer to the bottom note as E (not D) and in a duet the first issue is that you both play the same note (or harmonics not dissonants of them) so interval is secondary in that case, it such a case ABSOLUTE notes are important not relative one’s.

35

Hi LPent,

Welcome to the wonderful world of the whistle. In this universe you will find many different ways of appreciating key and scale. This has a lot to do with the whistle being a protagonist of ITM (Irish trad music) ITM is primarily an oral tradition and does not necessarily adhere to mainstream musical convention.

Your original premise was correct from the standpoint of conventional musical theory and practice.

If you pick-up a whistle in D it is in D - the first note is D and the next is E then F# etc - the same as your piano.

If you pick up a C whistle then the first note is C, then D then E etc as your piano.

If you want to play a piece in Eb with the piano - please save yourself some bother and get an Eb whistle.

You certainly can play the C major scale on a D whistle by flatening the 3rd and 7th notes but starting on the 7th. Some players pride themselves in being able to play any key at all on a single instrument - it is do-able but silly. I’d be content with playing the tonic, the dominant and the 7th in major ionian on any given instrument - the 2 octave range makes it a bit hard for some songs - at which point you switch to another whistle - there are lots around and, if you got them all, they still cost less than a piano :slight_smile:

ITM gets very interested in the modes - here’s where you will find the fun bit :slight_smile: