Coyne vs Harrington

So…not that I’m in any position to order a B set, but if I was I think at this point I’d be waffling between a Coyne and Harrington as my choice of model to copy. Unfortunately, I’ve never played either one of these beasts…but I’ve heard two different Harringtons, and a very accurate copy of a Coyne B chanter…

So, for the panel…what are some differences besides what I’ve heard in the chanters between Maurice Coyne and Denis Harrington’s B sets? I’m looking for info on playability, balance, timbre that a player can hear (as opposed to what the listener hears), and anything else anyone can think of…I know Bill offers copies of both…I’d love to find out some of the technical differences too…other than the differing drone placements!

What’s wrong with Egan?

djm

Well…honestly, I’ve never been able to hear or see any examples of his stuff! Any leads?

I know Bill offers copies of both.

Bill Haneman, you mean?

So, for the panel…what are some differences besides what I’ve heard in the chanters between Maurice Coyne and Denis Harrington’s B sets?

Don’t think any Harrington B chanters are around to copy.

Mostly the difference in the sets is cosmetic. Harrington made fancier stuff. You’d have to talk to someone who’s actually played both or made good copies to have an idea of what’s under the hood.

Egan sets seem a bit different sonically - listen to Paddy Moloney on the early Chieftains LPs, or Pat McNulty’s Autumn Apples, to hear Egan C. Or the C set on Willie Clancy’s Pipering Vol. 2, which is the same Egan Paddy’s playing. Ronan Browne plays Harrington B (with Peter Hunter chanter). Willie on Pipering Vol 2 and Robbie Hannon have Coyne B.

Egan’s pipes looked different, of course. They all play well according to those who actually own sets.
Hope that helps.

Guess I should chime in on this one… (it’s an oddly phrased question though, are you asking from the point of view of a potential customer, or a potential maker?)
Apologies in advance for the detailed reply. If you hate minutiae then just scroll on by…

Well, actually there is one… Ronan is playing it nowadays (he hasn’t used the Hunter B in a good few years). The more recent recordings of Ronan and Peadar (and Ronan solo, in B) use the Harrington B chanter.

It sounds great in his hands but so much of that is the player - even though that chanter is a treasure, it is not totally unmodified from its original state.

It’s true that there isn’t any Harrington B chanter data floating around out there in public, at least AFAIK, and I am unaware of any other Harrington B chanter that has survived (there’s one other that may be Harrington but the attribution is in doubt). I think I’d steer most people towards Coyne where B is concerned, from my experience Coyne B chanters are really lovely sounding, easy to play and well behaved.

Mostly the difference in the sets is cosmetic. Harrington made fancier stuff.

Not sure I would agree with the first of those points; the bores and tonalities seem quite different. The fanciness in Harrington seems, IMO, mostly restricted to the elaborate bass regulator finial which is present on at least some Harrington sets, and in the ‘double mounts’ on drone and regulator end caps - otherwise both makers seem to have made fancy and not-so-fancy models. Most of the Harrington mounts seem to have been horse bone, except for the pieces whose size required them to be ivory.

You’d have to talk to someone who’s actually played both or made good copies to have an idea of what’s under the hood.

Egan sets seem a bit different sonically - listen to Paddy Moloney on the early Chieftains LPs, or Pat McNulty’s Autumn Apples, to hear Egan C. Or the C set on Willie Clancy’s Pipering Vol. 2, which is the same Egan Paddy’s playing. Ronan Browne plays Harrington B (with Peter Hunter chanter). Willie on Pipering Vol 2 and Robbie Hannon have Coyne B.

The Coyne chanter that Willie is playing is, if it’s the chanter I think it is, rather atypical (again, not quite in its original condition). Robbie’s chanter is comparatively pristine, at least toneholes and bore - indeed it may be Coyne and it greatly resembles Coyne inside and out, but there is some possibility that it is late Kenna, as Robbie has always maintained it to be. (In some light one can see what appears to be a faint shamrock stamp).

Another Coyne B set is the “Busby” Coyne that Nollaig occasionally plays. Again, there are some questions about whether the chanter is in pristine condition. The Coyne B whose data was published by John Hughes in SRS (v1 or 2?) is indeed pristine and plays very well, and the measurements were very carefully made. Several people have used those figures successfully, including myself.

Pat Sky published measurements of his Kenna B chanter in SRS as well - nobody mentioned Kenna! That would be my second suggestion for B I think.

Egan doesn’t seem to have made any sets in B, at least as far as I know; there are a number of “Bflat” Egans (actually rather sharp of modern Bflat, but well flatter than “B”). Most Egans are either in that pitch or in/around C, the only exception I know of is cormacc’s set which is a bit sharper.

The trouble with Egan, at least at the moment, is that it seems no one has totally figured out how to reed them “optimally”. Cormac and Benedict K. have both come tantalizingly close, enough to suggest that Egan is a path worth pursuing. Benedict at least once referred to this sound as “the clear Egan tone” and I think I know what he means - a bit less buzzy than Coyne/Kenna/etc., maybe a big louder/bigger, but still maintaining the richness of narrow bore. Egan bores are indeed bigger than the other guys’, sort of a simple convex “bullet” or “sword” shape in profile, whereas the other bores are more “complex”/squiggly. I think Dan Dowd’s set as featured on Drones and Chanters v1 is an Egan as well. (Some of the old cylinder recordings feature Egan, probably, but it can be hard to judge tone from those).

As Kevin says, though, where sound is concerned you just have to hear them for yourself, and as far as looks, you have to seek out examples. Both are really personal matters. (It’s also true that great tone does not always correlate with easy to play/good behavior, though it often does…) There are loads of pictures on PDarcy’s uilleannobsession.com site, in the Diary sections over several years. He has a google widget on the site, I think, to help you search for stuff…

It seems pretty definite to me, from my experiences and conversations, that even given the same data and ‘model instrument’, and working to comparable ‘quality’, the “copies” from different pipemakers will differ quite a bit in character; personal nuances in the reeding/voicing process seem to make a huge difference.

Best regards,

Bill

Thanks Bill!

Potential customer…when I ever get to save money!

It is an oddly phrased question I suppose. It stems from wanting a B set derived from the old makers rather than a re-scaled concert set. Harrington and Coyne are the old makers that I’ve seen/heard the most of.

I KNEW that was the Harrington RB was playing! I’d heard the stuff he did with the Hunter chanter, then recently got the stuff where he’s playing the Harrington…I knew I could hear the difference. It sounds “older”…if that makes any sense…

It sounds as if something after Coyne might suit me best…or maybe Kenna…

I don’t think you have to worry about a B set being re-scaled from a concert set. Nobody’s making “wide-bore” B chanters . . . or is someone?

Stuart

Not re-scaled in the literal sense, but I’ve seen some ridiculously large B sets…they work fine, but it seems almost as if they’re flat/narrower bore versions of the maker’s concert pitch sets…in proportion and sound. I don’t want to name names, and the sets are plenty nice, they’re just not what I’m looking for…I think someone else described this better than I can in an older thread.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

You may be right particularly in regard to drones, maybe regs too.

I seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Stuart

Do ye mean like this Egan set? :really:
:wink:
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

Please define:

Harrington
Coyne

The sound. Thank you.

Ulliam: Nope, not what I meant.

TomC: I have much less experience at these pipes than others, so I may not be able to describe as well, but Ronan Browne’s Harrington to me sounds husky and muscular where a Coyne sounds a bit more, well…more “honey” in the tone. The Harrington “rumbles” and the Coyne sparkles…I don’t know…it’s like trying to describe how wine tastes to someone that’s never had it before! Easier said than done…

Oh, and then there’s the Kenna “creaminess” :slight_smile:

“Harrington” has more syllables.

:wink:

Have a good one with Finn’s send off!

Ah ha! I figured out who TomC is now…thanks for the clue Kevin!

Tom…what/who is your B set derived from? I’d say you’re probably able to define “the sound” far better than I’m capable of!

Just to add another dollop of murk re. RB’s sound, you have to remember that those are his own reeds, and he has balanced them to perfection.

djm

True that…but then that will always be a big factor eh what?

All this about Coyne vs Harrington is a bit redundant.
Firstly you need to have heard more that 2 or 3 of each Coyne and Harrington sets to properly identify the Coyne ‘sound’ or the Harrington ‘sound’ to really know what you are comparing.
I don’t know if there are enough of these sets left that are identical to each other enough to make a proper sonic comparison.

Also be weary of comparing commercial studio recordings. You must be aware that different microphones will change the tone of a set of pipes let alone mixing and the quality of the speakers that you listen on.


What you should be asking is how do modern makers compare. I’m not sure but are there even makers out there that copy these old sets 100% exactly. Same undercutting, chimney height and presumably bore and hole placement and then there is the reed.
Nobody can really say how the likes of Coyne or Harrington would have liked their pipes to sound and so nowadays differing reeds can make 2 Coyne B chanters sound different.
(mind you are there even 2 Coyne chanters exactly the same out there?)

What happens if you get a copy of a Harrington set and it doesn’t sound like Ronan Brownes pipes…

Honestly I think your (not you meemtp individually but anyone wanting to but a flat set) homework should involve going around and listening to sets made by makers who’s work you can realisticly get your hands on.
Get to one of the bigger tionols around the country and examine whats there. A trip to the Willie Clancy week would be perfect. You could meet a newer european maker with a short waiting list who just designed your dream set!!

Listen to the new stuff, and be thinking of comparing Hanneman to Quinn or Angus to Stephenson to Dixon.

Best of luck!

Tommy

I don’t know if there are enough of these sets left that are identical to each other enough to make a proper sonic comparison.

That’s a good point. All this talk of such and such’s sound might be a carryover from flutes, where you hear endless chatter about the Pratten vs. Rudall vs. Nach Meyer sound. They have heaps of these old flutes to compare, measure, and copy, so there might be a point to it all. Not much of the same can be done with old flat pipes, although Bill says there is a difference - at least judging from recordings I wouldn’t think the Harrington sets I’ve heard were by the same man.

How many Harringtons are there to chose from, anyway? Ronan vs. Geoff vs. the one in Australia, whatever it sounds like. I have some recordings of Sean Talty, Harrington with Egan chanter. But one thing about these old sets is they all sound very nice - I think you’d be happy with any of them!

Apart from that there’s the cosmetics of a set, where they do generally differ - Harrington had those blocky reg caps, the “double mounts” Bill mentioned, the big bass reg finial. You say you’ve seen some plainer Harrington sets, Bill? You know what I mean about Coyne making simpler stuff usually - no ferrule at the stock end of the regulators, for instance. You can make some broad generalizations here.

On reflection I have to agree with the two Toms as well. At least where Harrington is concerned, nowhere enough has survived to say anything meaningful about the “Harrington sound”. Basically there are only two ‘definite Harrington’ chanters being played out, by very different players, in different pitches.

I think Coyne is a little bit of a different matter - a good few Coyne sets have survived and at least those few lucky folks who have played/examined and heard more than one of two instruments up close will have formed some impressions. Also, there seems to be quite a bit of consistency among the Coyne instruments, bore-wise, in my experience.

Egan is problematic since while there are a fair number of surviving Egans, really none are currently being played publicly and probably only a couple are actually reeded up and going (incompletely, at that).

Even if you can form reasonable generalizations about a classic maker, it is of limited value in choosing between contemporary makers. Lots of makers may make reference to Coyne, for instance, as a model, but their work can differ tremendously, and who is to say which, if any, of these contemporary instruments is anything like the originals? Best to take it all with a grain or two of salt…

Bill

Points well taken…thanks again to all.

I did however ask along more lines than just the sound, a lot of those about the technical aspects of the sets themselves were answered by Bill and Kevin. I probably should have emphasized those questions more and made it more clear that I was pursuing multiple lines of questioning in one question!

I was curious about the purely asthetic details of the designs as I’m also hoping to be able to have a flat set someday that not only embodies the aforementioned characteristics, but also the asthetics of the older makers as well. Thanks to all!