cooleys reel

Whistle
21

Er … no. There isn’t a single 12-bar blues ever written that’s in mixolydian. Look at those chord progressions: G, C, D7. Where’s the F natural in that? I would go so far as to say that if somebody ever did try to write a 12-bar blues in mixolydian, it wouldn’t be a 12-bar blues. It’s simply not idiomatic in that genre. (Just in case somebody comes back with “But I’ve seen a blues in G that has F naturals in”, yes you may well … and also B flats. They would typically be played against the F# and B nat respectively. It’s a blues thing - not to do with the church modes at all. You even get blues in E major that have B flats in …)

Oh, and by the way, I can’t speak so definitely about Country music, but I’d be surprised if there were many, if any, country songs in mixolydian. I’m willing to be persuaded on this one, though. Give us a link to one that’s in mixolydian …

22

Just a quick postscript to that last post of mine …

The flattened 7th that almost invariably is used in the very last chord of just about any blues number does not make the whole thing mixolydian. Nor does the occasional use of [root] flattened 7th chords during the song. For a blues in G to be in mixolydian, you’d expect to have F major and D minor chords in there, and it just doesn’t happen. Oh, except in some of the more ‘progressive’ types of ‘blues’ in a fancy ‘middle 8’, but that would be after modulating to a different key, so it’s still not in mixolydian.

Note also that the use of the flattened 7th (but, strictly speaking, not fully flattened - this ought to be a ‘blue note’) in the 4th bar of a twelve-bar cycle is not an indication of mixolydian - it is, in effect, a temporary modulation to the IV chord used in the 5th bar of the cycle.

23

The setting of Cooley’s I have (same one as Ben - either he taught it me or we learnt it together) actually has no Cs at all, sharp or natural, save as cuts and in rolls on B - though there are actually quite a lot of those. So the melody un-“ornamented” would count as being in a gapped mode anyway, I think. In such cases, and given that cuts etc. are not usually pitch specific, it doesn’t matter that the cut on a B has to be to C#.

T: Cooley’s Reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: Edor
|:D2|EBBE B2 EB|B2 AB dBAG|(3FED AD BDAD|FDFA dAFD|EBBE B2 EB|B2 AB defg|
afef dBAd|DEFB E2:|]|:f2|eB ~B2 egfg|eB ~B2 gedB|A2 FA DAFA|BAFA defg|
eB ~B2 egfg|eB ~B2 gefg|afef dBAd|DEFB E2:|]

24

Just as a final aside, the version of Cooley’s that I learned actually does have C-naturals; it’s in true E-minor (E-Aeolian mode, in the old nomenclature).

You will find different settings of tunes being played depending on where people learned them. Sometimes the settings “work” together, sometimes they don’t.

Also over time, without ever actually meaning to, people put their own unique “stamp” on a tune.

That’s all part of the fun! :slight_smile: I love encountering fresh takes on a tune.

–James

25

hey peeplj,i would first like to know if there is any way to cross finger and get a f natural on a key of d whistle ,and could you recommend me a link for keysignature importance im reall y not getn it apart rom the fact that it helps u in deciding the whether its a happy tune or a sad one…thats all i know.or you could really explain it o me…i hope im not pissing you off

26

Yep. That is indeed the setting we both have, Jem. I’d go further - the B rolls I play on fiddle use an upper ‘note’ of d, so there really are no C’s in, of either perusasion. In fact, if it wasn’t for convenience, and the basic rhythmic qualities of the roll, I’d do the same on whistle. You’d lose the proper rhythm though, I think … Plus, as you point out, the cut and tap of a roll shouldn’t really be pitch specific.

Our version is indeed in a ‘gapped’ mode, a ‘hexatonic’ mode, which is quite common in Irish music. I was commenting on the setting on the sesh, though, which is a perfectly decent, and fairly common setting of this reel.

27

Short answer is “no”. Most whistles bore and tone-hole design simply don’t allow for it to be possible. Even on Baroque Flute which used/uses a cross-fingered F natural (xxx xox with Eb key closed) and was designed to optimise this working so far as was possible given necessary compromises with other things working aright, it was/is a notoriously poor note - weak toned and sharp, needing to be “lipped down”. You can’t “lip” notes into tune on a whistle (breath control can allow some pitch variation, but not really enough and certainly not easily controlled), and most have large tone-holes and bores that are not optimised to facilitate cross fingering, though as it happens quite a few cross fingerings for other notes usually work quite well (G#, Bb and Cnat). Even conoid bore whistles like Clarkes or Dave Shaws don’t give a workable cross-fingered F natural - you will get some flattening of the F# by putting down R3, but it is nowhere near enough.

28

No worries…I’ll answer as best I can.

You can’t cross-finger an F-natural on a D whistle; you have to half-hole it. Depending on the whistle, there are other chromatics that you can cross-finger, though; C-natural, B-flat, and G-Sharp can be both cross-fingered and half-holed on most whistles.

For help with understanding key signature, start here.

I hope this helps.

–James

29

ben,
you’re right. i’m an idiot. i said the blues and country were a mixolydian thing because for years i was taught to use mixolydian to play lead progressions in 12 bar… but you are right… the flatted seventh is not in the chord progression… (unless you use G7, C and D7… but most don’t do that…) i guess i don’t know enough about theory to take part in this conversation. i never did get on well with modes… i just play.

so, now that we’ve both confirmed i have no idea what i’m talking about, i will be quiet.

be well,

jim

30

Don’t go away, jiminos, it’s fine. We’re just having a conversation here …

Quite often, blues progressions will use G7 C7 G7 etc, with every chord containing a flattened 7th. But that still don’t make it mixolydian, that was my point. And, please bear in mind that, ideally, that flattened 7th, when used as part of the melody, shouldn’t be as flat as it would be in a normal 7th chord. Go back to Robert Johnson, and you’ll see what I mean. It’s a wild sort of note, somewhere beteen the sharp and natural versions of the notes.

Another interesting thing someone told me recently about blues - they reckoned (and, from memory, I think they’re right, though I haven’t checked it) that the most usual key for blues used to be C. It was only when the rock people got hold of it, lots later, that the ‘standard’ key of E became the norm.

Also, in blues, say a blues in C, you’d often get, as well as the flattened 7th, a flattened 3rd and also a flattened 5th. These would be part of the melody line though, and not usually in the harmonic accompaniment. Even, in some cases, where, in a ‘call and response’ type of blues, the call would include the ‘blue’ notes and the response might be ‘straight’.

Then, there’s things like Billie Holiday’s slightly sharp, though falling, tonic notes at the end of phrases …

I could go on …

:smiley:

31

“Could”??? (Pot & Kettle :smiley: )

Careful, or I’ll play my pibgorn at you :devil: (need a pibgorn-playing smiley really!), especially if you don’t answer my Qs on the DyGW thread!

32

You put that thing away. You’ll 'ave someone’s eye out with that!

Meanwhile, of course I’ve downloaded the E Jones stuff. What do you take me for? [Don’t answer that.]

I haven’t been able to come up with anything else on Codiad Yr Hedydd - it’s not easy, you know … I’ve just had a thought, actually - are you still in touch with Roy Saer? He used to be invaluable in such matters …

33

i wouldn’t be surprised to learn that C was the standard at one time. i’ve seen a lot of stuff done originally in G, that has somehow migrated to E in more recent decades.

be well,

jim

34

I am a novice at this, but have been pondering your post. I have a question that may be dumb, and may be hard to express correctly, but here goes.

If I have a tune/melody/note sequence that does not span to much of the whistles range, then could I just play it in each of the modes by moving the start note (and all others) up one hole? I could then see if I could get a different mood feeling for each mode?
Would any note sequences be more appropriate than others? Has this been done? Would this give a feel for Locrian that you were asking about?

Or am I talking rubbish?

35

If I have a tune/melody/note sequence that does not span to much of the whistles range, then could I just play it in each of the modes by moving the start note (and all others) up one hole? I could then see if I could get a different mood feeling for each mode?
Would any note sequences be more appropriate than others? Has this been done? Would this give a feel for Locrian that you were asking about?

You could- I’ve done this before and it’s a lot of fun- but then it’d be a different tune.

“Would any note sequences be more appropriate than others” isn’t really an intelligible question; really the only “appropriate” sequence for the tune is the sequence the tune is actually in; if you switch the mode you have a “new” tune with a new “appropriate” sequence.

Keep in mind that a mode, esp in Irish music, isn’t just a sequence of whole and half steps- there’s certain motives and riffs that are associated with different modes, as well as certain gapped scales within the mode (eg, DEF#ABD is a very common Ionian gapped scale, but EF#GBC#E is NOT a very common Dorian gapped scale). So changing the mode of a tune, moving it up a hole, won’t teach you what a given mode typically sounds like, though it will give you a feel for the mode and it’s a fun exercise which I see no problem in trying.

If you wanna learn what different modes sound like, learn tunes in different modes. thesession.org is great for this.

36

Agreed. Basically. Except that, as we’ve seen, they probably won’t be listed in the correct modes. Some of them are, but a lot aren’t. And, if you’re not already very familiar with modes (let’s be specific - with Western Church Modes) then how are you to tell which ones are right and which aren’t? Tell you what - I might post a link to some in a few different modes that are correct. That might help. Maybe.

37

The Drunken Landlady
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/363

The Dunmore Lasses
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/462
(This one’s in E minor, for which read ‘E Aeolian’)

Fasten the Leg in Her
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2838
(This one’s in G major, for which read ‘G Ionian’)

Old Hag You Have Killed Me
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1359

I chose the above with the following criteria:

They are written in the correct mode
They are trad tunes (not newly composed ones)
They don’t contain serious errors
They are in whistle-friendly keys
They are all, IMO, relatively easy to play on whistle

The task was much much harder than I expected it to be. Apart from anything else, some very well-known tunes came up on the searches that, when I looked at the transcriptions, were just plain wrong. In fact, after that exercise, I’d revise my earlier estimate of ‘wrongly transcribed’ tunes on the sesh to about 90%. I had to wade through hundreds of tunes to get ones that fitted the above criteria.



[footnote: In case anyone wants to pick me up on the fact that I’ve equated Ionian with major and Aeolian with Minor above … Yes, I know that, technically, they’re different. But not for these purposes they’re not. You have to get pretty abstruse in terms of music theory to get into those differences.]

38

Well go on, then. You know you’re just itching to vent it…

39

ben, thank you for the listed songs and the work it took to find them. i know i appreciate your efforts.

jem… :poke:

be well,

jim

(isn’t there a smiley for stirring the pot?)

40

Jem’s all right, Jim. He’s doing two things in that last post of his:

  1. Slagging
  2. (Perhaps surprisingly) genuinely interested in what I might have to say regarding the differences between Ionian modal music and that in the classical major key, and similarly for the difference between Aeolian modal music and that in the classical minor key.

Now, for Irish trad, it doesn’t really matter, because, whilst there are tunes in Aeolian, there are very few in classical minor keys. Move over to Welsh music, however, and there are more minor tunes than Aeolian tunes. The differences between modal music Inonian and music in the classical major key is, in my opinion, too subtle to bother going into here. Or possibly, anywhere.