Concertina?

Whistle
1

I’m curious about learning the concertina and have been doing some web research. Concertina.net has a lot of good info, but they deal mainly with instruments costing mucho dinero. I really want to spend a minimal amount for one of these, perhaps with an eye towards trading up if I really love it.

What I see mainly in my price range are import 20 button Anglo instruments, C/G-- will that handle a lot of the tunes we usually play on whistle? I also found this 30 button on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16218&item=7311292589&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Does this seem like a better idea?

Anyone out there with a used one they’d like to sell cheap? Trade towards/for a whistle? Thanks

2

The subject has been up several times and for the concertina it’s not a good idea doing it on the cheap if you are anywhere near serious about it.
Every teacher I spoke to told me the 2 row was the wrong way to go (that said, we had one on loan and it can get you going a bit but as you will have to trade up very quickly it’s really a waste of money buyingone, especially if you get something l like a stagi, hohner or gremlin or even worse which will be hard to get rid of).
I bought my son a 1920s 3 row Lachenal which kept him going for a good while, we’re slowly thinking of going up a bit by now but I found it the best balance between price and quality for a starter’s instrument.

3

Paul, considering what a good concertina usually costs, the one you found on eBay is probably not a good one. I’d think i’ts probably one of the cheaper Chinese instruments that have accordion reeds. The fact the seller doesn’t give any details, doesn’t make me feel very confident either.

However, it’s only $99, which is cheaper than most whistle makers are charging these days. :smiley: It might serve as a way to get used to the keyboard until you decide if you want to take the plunge.

4

A friend of mine bought a relatively cheap new instrument (I think it was still several hundred dollars), and the bellows were so stiff that she began developing tendon problems in her wrist and hands. She moved to a more expensive used instrument and the tendon problems went away. So, I’d at least want to be able to return an instrument if it was difficult to play.

5

Paul,

I’ve thought about this same issue and looked into it a good bit. I should preface my remarks by saying that Bob Tedrow is a friend of mine, the man from whom I bought my first whistle, and whose shop is a mile or two from my office.

I am convinced by those people who claim that an inexpensive concertina is a false economy. I was skeptical for awhile because that statement is often made by people who sell expensive ones. But, I’ve heard so many players say the same thing. It’s hard to find anyone who will say that an inexpensive concertina may be the only concertina you’ll ever need. In this case, it’s not analogous to the whistle at all. Almost everyone who tries a cheap one, and sticks with the instrument, fairly quickly upgrades.

The only remaining issue is whether it makes sense to buy a cheap instrument as a way of finding out whether the instrument is for you. I’ve heard a few players argue this case, but most seem to assert that there’s considerable risk that a cheap instrument will ruin your desire to ever play. The bellows are stiff and noisy (as someone pointed out already). The reeds tend to be inferior.

Contact Bob Tedrow and tell him I sent you. He will want to sell you an instrument of his own making. However, if you let him know who you are and what your situation is, he could keep an eye out for a used instrument. I know he has some come through.

Dale

6

The 20-button instruments have no C#. Fun for simple songs, sea shantys and the like, or tunes in C or G, of course. A 30-button instrument can be played faster and more fluidly since it has alternate buttons for several notes, and can also be played in any key (although it gets awkward if you have a lot of sharps or flats).

I had one that looked just like that. Ouch. The problem with these cheap instruments is that they’re almost invariably stiff and difficult to play. The spacing and placing of the buttons and air vent button is usually awkward. For me, it worked OK for playing slow songs, learning the fingering, and seeing if I would get on well with the concertina. The sound wasn’t that bad, but it also had a few flaky buttons and reeds, which I hear is almost inevitable with those cheap Chinese instruments. It’s essentially disposable – I’d give up playing if I had to play one of those things. You’ll just be fighting it.

A Stagi isn’t much better, although the quality seems to vary, and you may be able to find a decent one if you can play it first. You have to be very lucky (and know what you’re looking for) to find an instrument for less than $1000 that you can develop any real proficiency on. Your safest bet would probably be one of the modern makers, who make nice 30-button anglos for $1600-$2000 or so. I’ve played the Morse and Tedrow, and they’re pretty darn good. I hear the Edgley is good too.

Tedrow: http://hmi.homewood.net/
Morse: http://www.buttonbox.com/morse.html
Edgley: http://www.concertinas.ca/

I now have a Geuns-Wakker: http://www.concertinaconnection.com/
Which I think is a touch nicer than the Morse or Tedrow, and has a bit more of a concertina-like sound, but costs more, starting at about $2400. But, they also make an English concertina, a 30-key “Jackie” model which is $260 shipped and I hear is quite playable, although a bit limiting due to the number of buttons. The Anglo vs. English issue is pretty complex (I assume you’re at least a bit familiar with the different issues), but as far as I know, the Jackie is the only decent concertina which can be had new for less than $1500 or so. It’s a basic looking and sounding instrument, but is supposed to play well.

7

The 20 key (an old one: 1900-ish)I had for a while did have a C sharp but in an awkward place.

Isn’t it funny how people here who don’t think twice about forking out hundreds of dollrs for a plain whistle suddenly go all tight when an immensely more complex (to make) instrument has to be bought? :roll:

8

I think it’s because - as a player - one doesn’t really care about how complex the instrument is to make. The final price is what matters, and here $200 might easily be feasible where $2000 isn’t…

In any case, that’s my excuse. I borrowed a nice Button Box concertina for a few years and loved playing it, but as much as I would like to, I just don’t feel I can afford to get a similar instrument of my own. :frowning:

/Jens

9

I too would caution against buying a cheapy. If it’s Irish music you want to play you need to be able to play in D and G and related minors unless you plan duets with a flat pitch piper. You might fluke a C# on a two row but you will pay for it in other ways.

Two row D/Gs exist and I’d actually like to own one if I could find one. The extra bassiness would appeal. I think you’d be lucky to find one; I don’t think many have been made.

If you have someone in mind who would service it for you and do a really good job, a three row Lachenal would be teh best compromise I think. But I started with a two-row Lachenal that was so unresponsive that I had to play a note on saturday if I wanted it to sound on sunday. You cannot learn on an instrument like that but I’ve played well-restored three-row Lachenals that would do the job. I went straight for a $A3,000 top end instrument, worth considerably more now. The cheapie I borrowed convinced me that that was the instrument I wanted to play. I’ve never regretted buying the good one.

10

The concertinaplayer I play with, Kitty Hayes, plays the old system of playing (she started out on the two row German Concertina during the early 40s), on a C/G she plays in C. We have been trying to find her a D/G to play concert pitch and it’s very hard to find a good one. She used to have a Stagi which was really awful, she now has a Marcus three row D/G which she isn’t happy with so she sticks with the old rosewood ended Lachenal C/G which does the job for her. one lachenal D/G came up once a three row and very nice player but owned by a man who wouldn’t aprt with it/ She played it all night and didn’t want to give it back. They are hard to find.

11

[quote="Jens_HoppeI think it’s because - as a player - one doesn’t really care about how complex the instrument is to make. The final price is what matters, and here $200 might easily be feasible where $2000 isn’t…

/Jens[/quote]

Same for me-- I have no idea if I’ll even LIKE playing the 'tina or if I do like it, if I’ll realistically have a lot of time or opportunity to play it. I searched for a long time to find a tenor banjo and finally found an inexpensive but decent one. I played it for a while, took it to several sessions and enjoyed it pretty much. However, I found that I liked my whistles (natch) and mandolin more and the banjo just sat collecting dust so I’ve just sold it to someone here on the board.
Someone on the board has kindly offered to lend me an inexpensive 20 button which I’m hoping will give me at least a feel for the concertina. If I LOVE it, I wouldn’t mind spending more money on a better instrument.

12

Hm. That “Jackie” thing looks interesting. They’ll give you a credit worth the full purchase price of the Jackie if you upgrade with them. Looks like this instrument is made in China to their specifications. That would explain the low price, I suppose.

13

I have the Jackie. It’s a lovely box, though a bit of a honker (it’s loud!) but it’s missing the second octave B. Which I found to be terribly inconvenient for ITM. If it had the second octave B it’d be a perfect starter instrument.

14

Another good up-and-coming US concertina maker is Dana Johnson of Kensington, Maryland. He makes everything in his concertinas, reeds and all, in his basement workshop and sells them under the brand name “Kensington Concertinas”. (Some other makers do not make their own reeds and instead use accordion reeds in their concertinas. Nothing wrong with that, although the sound is different and sometimes not exactly concertina-like.) I have Dana’s concertina #006 and I like it a lot. So has everyone else who’s seen it, including some well-known concertina players and makers. I got it in August 2002 for $2000 and with only a few months wait. YMMV now, though. Dana doesn’t have a website, but if you send me a PM I’ll give you his e-mail address. (Don’t want to post it here, 'cause it might get him spammed.)

15

I’m interested in that Jackie too, not for me but for a friend (the fact that it’s English system may be a good thing). If anyone has actually played one, please let me know what you thought.

(Ooops! I see Gary already did. Thanks!)

The “second edition” Jackie goes up to A (by sacrificing a couple of convenience doubled notes).

Speaking of cool weird things, check out the “pedal bass” instrument at concertina connection! :boggle:

g

16

Look up a coupla posts G old chap!

17

I think we’re posting at the same time. You may want to check the “second edition” Jackie for the extra notes.

18

Must be a time-space continuum warp bubble then, cos I posted mine more’n an hour before…

Re the Second Edition:

“30 keys, ranging from G below middle C to the second C above middle C. Fully chromatic.
The 2nd edition goes 3 notes (Bb, B, C) higher than the 1st edition, but misses the double notes.”

It’s that “misses the double notes” that alarms and intrigues. Which notes have been chopped? By keeping to 29 keys (the 30th is just an air button) but sacrificing “the double notes” (whatever they are) then the keyboard layout can’t be identical to a standard English.

That could definitely cause problems when the time comes to upgrade.

I upgraded to a Lachenal fairly soon after buying the Jackie (1st edition) because I became quickly irritated by the lack of B2. But there are many many tunes that never go up to the second B. I just got hung up on that missing note I think.

As for playing the Jackie, as I said, it’s loud. Steel reeds for one thing. It’s at least double the volume of my brass-reeded Lachenal. It’d stand up well in a session (unless there’s a piano accordion player in the building!).

The action is fast, certainly fast enough for any beginner wishing to check out the 'tina.

It’s heavy, much heavier than a Lachenal, and it’s big too, a lot bigger’n a Lachenal. But the buttons are, as the makers correctly state, laid out exactly as the originals, which makes upgrading a doddle.

Bellows are waxed paper, which tends to creak and groan a lot from brand new until they get used to being used. With care though, they’ll last a long time (though possibly not as long as the original leather/card bellows).

It’s possible to add a home-made neckstrap just by removing the knurled thumbstrap screws (they’ve a convenient sharp point on), pushing the screw through the neckstrap material, and replacing the screws. They’re plenty strong enough to bear the weight of the box. With the weight of the box, I’d definitely recommend a neck-strap.

They don’t do the trade-in deal here in the UK :frowning:

I said in my previous post that the Jackie makes for a perfect beginner’s instrument apart from the lack of the B2 on the right-hand end. But that’s clearly for the “first edition” model. I don’t think I could say the same for the second edition though, because those missing “double notes” could definitely cause problems for a beginner upgrading to a modern EC or an original Lachenal/Wheatstone EC.

Hope this helps!

19

I just did a search on concertina.net and read much of what people have to say about the Jackie. It really gets surprisingly respectable reviews considering the price. Of course, it’s the English system and that is an issue. It looks like the #2 model might be the better way to go.

Dale

20

Now there’s a case of posting at the same time!

I’d have to disagree with you on both points I think, the second for reasons I mentioned above.

As for the first (“Of course, it’s the English system and that is an issue”), well, I gather there’s still a huge amount of debate about which is best for ITM… Anglo or English. Come to think of it, I think there’s not so much a debate as there is a flame war along the lines of “You can’t play ITM on an English!”

I think that’s got a lot to do with “pure drop” fixation than fact. Consensus is that the Anglo action lends itself better to dance music because of the inherent ‘beat’ created by the push/pull action (different notes on the push and pull), something the English doesn’t have (same note on the push and pull).

Personally, I think it depends on the player. I’m sure Peter will let us know what the view from the front line is.

Certainly the English is apparently a lot more versatile in many respects…fully chromatic, capable of very fast playing (for example in Classical repertoire), simpler to learn (another contentious point, I concede!), and a good instrument for playing chordal accompaniment as well as melody.

Guess it depends what music you want to play.