I did not want to interrupt another thread so putting this here.
I have read a few places about collapsed reeds but no one has ever mentioned how one would know if it is collapsed
So what is the symptom of a collapsed reed? What does it sound like? Does it crack? Does it wobble? How do I know if a reed has collapsed.
Johnnie
a reed that has completely collapsed has no aperture. Both pieces of cane are touching. there is virtually no sound. one that is in the process of collapsing, can have all sorts of things go wrong (Some might be):
auto cran
sagging back d
becomes very easy to play, too easy..
and the list of disappointments can go on and on.
IMO a “collapsed” reed can have an aperture - probably an insufficiently large one, but an aperture nonetheless. A reed that has suffered collapse will usually exhibit an asymmetric opening - one or both blades may be warped, or the two blades markedly different in curvature from one another. Often when a reed that has collapsed is opened via a bridle, the sides will gap. All of the above symptoms usually indicate reed death, though some have reported success in removing the blades and re-forming the proper blade shape (usually by binding to a cylindrical form followed by a moistening/steaming and drying cycle).
In extreme weather changes it’s important to keep a close check on reeds and open them via the bridle if they seem to be closing too much - otherwise collapse may result. Lots of reeds have bitten the dust this winter…
This is most helpful – thanks to the OP, Bill and everyone! I’ve been wondering about the whole “opening more” question – my reed has “clammed up” a few times this winter, and in several cases I’ve discovered it’s because my bridle has slipped down. So I’ve been carefully sliding the bridle back up and thus re-opening the reed, which seems to push it back to normal every time, although it’s been a bit stiffer since the last time I did it (it’s also darned cold and dry here).
Anyway, basically I’ve been worrying about stressing or cracking the reed by opening it too much. I do go in infinitesimal increments, but is there a rule of thumb about where/when to quit?
P.S. I recently downloaded the reedmaker’s guide from NPU, which will probably answer all my questions when I get around to actually reading it … so apologies in advance for being thick.
It has been my experience that if reeds habitually collapse, the fault may be found in the pressure exerted in binding. If the blades are forced too strongly together in an effort to prevent side leakage, the aperture will gradually succumb to those stresses and collapse. By the time winter RH drops and the blades shrink, the damage has already been done by the moisture of summer. The style of reedmaking I adopted usually requires that during the coldest time of the year when the blades shrink away from the bridle and the bridle becomes loose, I lower the bridle from about a third of the way up, (where it resides,) to the bottom near the binding, and pinch it on the sides to give the bridle “spring,” then slide it back up to it’s usual place. This re-introduces the verve that reeds need to sound lively. It is advised that in the springtime, when the reed swells, some of that pinching be reversed by pinching upon the scrape, (as opposed to simply lowering the bridle,) because at that point the overly tight bridle can crush the bark on the edges of the reed, thereby reducing the useful lifespan of the reed by eating into it at the sides.
If your reed has collapsed, you will definitely know it. It either won’t sound, or just barely wheeze. Many things can cause it. Changes in weather, soft cane, stiff cane that cracks, over scraping, over pressuring, edges too thin, binding too tight, accidents while adjusting, looking at it in the wrong way (sarcasm) an old reed may just wear out and collapse. The quest for the the reed of a lifetime is every pipers journey. A stellar reed is every pipers dream. Out of every 20 reeds I make, if I’m lucky, one will be stellar, two or three will collapse, two or three will be mediocre, the rest will usually be pretty good and playable but not stellar. Some of my most stellar reeds have collapsed. Why? Well, sometimes they just collapse. I have one that’s been going great for about three years and only needs slight adjustments occasionally. I would not be able to play pipes if I didn’t make my own reeds.
IMHO, that’s why all pipers should know how to make their own reeds.
bill,when you say asymmetric opening, do you mean one side may be more closed than the other? if i look at the opening of my reed the one side, just a wee bit from the edge, is close more than the other. trying not to hijack the thread but this maybe on the same line of posts.
I wonder if freezing will cause a collapsed reed – I lost a good and fairly new one that way going to session and I suspect it was due to not warming up the car enough first.
That’s not uncommon, and yes I believe that sort of asymmetry can be a problem. It can partly be compensated for by trimming the reed lips at a slight angle (thus making the opening more uniform). The more dangerous sort of asymmetry IMO is when one reed blade is more curved than the other - but any sort of asymmetry bodes badly.
In a “collapsed” reed often one finds that the lips are closing somewhere other than the very edge - they can form a sort of S curve or some other shape which differs from a smooth arc of single curvature. At least, by my definition of “collapsed”.
Well, I fiddled and fiddled with it last night; slid the bridle down and pinched the sides gently as described, slid the bridle back up and then fine-tuned up or down from there. The tone, tuning, and general behavior differences were amazing! Anyway, by the end of the session I seemed to have found a good place and all was well. Back in tune, tone wasn’t too bright or too strangled, hard D returned (I didn’t realize I’d been losing it the change has been so gradual). I left the bridle “up” this time in the hopes of maintaining some sort of curvature while not playing; this never occurred to me. I love this reed and want it to live!
Anyway, we made it through almost all of Helvic Head in fine form before the baritone drone fell out. Sheesh. I always loved winter until I started trying to play the pipes!
Anyway, just hoping it can hang in there until my reedmaking class in April. Thanks again for all the help and the MAJOR “aha” about blade curvature!
BTW, the guitarist at the session was talking about a friend who played the … oh, chud. Not the bombarde but something even more exotic, double-reeded, Middle Eastern perhaps? Anyway, he said his friend would insert a piece of paper between the reed lips when he wasn’t playing as a sort of “form.” Anyone ever heard of such a thing?
thanks bill.
Duduk, perhaps? With the world’s largest double reed?
There’s much to be said about symmetry. Tim Britton is a proponent of visual symmetry, so much so, that he won’t play-test his reed until the look as perfect as the can be.
I’ve found that trying to paying very close attention to symmetry in my reed making, has made my overall results better. I don’t have Tim’s sniper-scope eye sight for detail (his eyesight is astonishing, really), but making sure everything is as even as possible, that both halves have identical scrapes, that the opening is not exhibiting some of the malfunctions Bill mentioned, etc., allows one to at very least…rule out the plethora of maladies that can arise, due asymmetrical construction/lapses in attention during construction, that will ultimately interfere with the reed vibrating efficiently.
Wow, that looks great in print…
…and now to try and accomplish it!!! 
Everyone has forgotten the most important element!
The REED FAIRIES!!! :shock:AAAAKK!!!
If not pleased, the reed fairies will wreak HAVOC on all of your reeds. As a full moon is rising, you must climb to the top of the tallest tree you can find. Play The King of the Fairies 3 times as 3 virgins dance the set 3 times round the base of the tree. Then carefully remove the reed from the chanter and crush it into tiny pieces (the reed, not the chanter you silly) then go home and make another reed. Keep doing this on every full moon until eventually the fairies look kindly upon you. You will know when they do because, eventually you will make the perfect reed!! 
Like this?
OH YEAH!!! 
That’s perfect Jumper.
The reed fairies will be very, very pleased!!!
Now the question is, where the heck did you find three virgins?
Years ago I played in bands with sax players, clarinet etcetc.. The players seemed to always want to wet their reeds.. Some in a glass of water others in anything wet..Some keep licking them.
Would doing that to our reeds help to keep the moisture in the reed? I know the above reeds are mostly single reeds and not doubles. But we do do that with the GHB reeds understanding tho that its a wet blow and not dry.
I have an old pipe tobacco humidor that my father owned. Would keep my reeds in there between playing help them keep moist?
Trying to think of ways to prevent the cracking and closing of my reeds is all and I don’t mind taking out my reed after every play and parking it in a container till next time I wish to play again.
Johnnie
in the world of ghb, they have a thing called the pipers pal. it goes over th chanter top to protect the reed. it also has a humidification system in it. supposed to keep the reed nice. it also removes excess moisture, for ghb anyway. although this is a dry instrument, the hydration aspect might work.
Wetting the reed is a very bad idea - likely to destroy it. Taking the reed out is risky also.
IMO putting a humidifier in the pipe case is the better answer. Although the pipes and reed will dry out when removed from the case and played in a very dry environment, the resulting stress on the reed is short-lived unless you are playing for hours. Crowded pub settings - one place where you might play for hours - tend to be rather humid anyhow. However if you put a humidifier in the case, you need to put a hygrometer in as well, and check the humidity levels to avoid going too high.
It’s especially important to consider condensation - an already-humid pipe case should never be subjected to significantly lower temperatures as this will cause the relative humidity to spike and moisture can condense on the reed - probably with disastrous results. So both humidity and temperature should be considered. There’s nothing inherently wrong with low temperatures but one should bear in mind that humidity and temperature are strongly dependent on one another - thus humidity should be monitored and changes resulting from temperature changes should be anticipated. Similarly, increased temperatures in a sealed case result in lower relative humidity - one more reason to avoid placing a case in direct sun or, worse, a car boot in sunny weather. Winter car boots are a problem because of the condensation risk - insulated cases help.
Bill
You just answered about a gazillion of my most nagging questions in one swell foop! Thank you!
I’ll ask my friend if the beast in question is a duduk. I must admit, I’m intrigued by the folded slip of paper (aka “shim”?) idea … Maybe once I get a few “beater” reeds under my belt I’ll subject one or two to the experiment.