charles roberts now living in spain

Uilleann Pipes
21

Thanks, Kevin. I can appreciate your thoughts.

Wannabe, I am not going to go into all the gory details.

I won’t be posting any more about this subject.

Suffice it to say that I hope everything does get resolved in a calm, respectable manner.

There is much good to be had here on the forum, and I would like to see it continue as well.

I appreciate all who responded publicly and privately, with insightful wisdom and sympathy. Your thoughts and suggestions are greatly valued.

Dale, will you please lock this thread?

Thanks,

–KR

22

If you think you’re doing us a public service by airing this on C&F you’re wrong.

– Kevin Popejoy

…

Well Kevin, that’s your opinion, and I happen to disagree. If someone is being ripped off (and note, I said “IF”, as I’m not the judge of a trial here) - but IF a someone is being ripped off, why should that action go unheard of? Wouldn’t you want to know about some past actions with an individual or company prior to doing business with them? Wouldn’t you feel a bit put out if someone hadn’t warned you first?

Case in point - I also post messages to a board known as Saabnet.com . Like this message board, all manner of topics relating to Saab automobiles are discussed. Quite often, there are questions asked about various repair shops and dealership service departments with regard to their integrity.

I happen to have been ripped off by a particular dealership’s service department (they literally doubled the price of a part and charged me for 2.5 hours of labor for a job that should have taken an hour). Did I mention that this had occurred on that message board? You’re darn right I did, and why not?

If someone is engaging in questionable (i.e., unethical, illegal) business practices, why WOULDN’T you want to know about it?

There’s my opinion on the matter.

BrianC

23

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone give good evidence for what kind of legal action is possible for for things said on this board. Or, more simply put, how liable the board is for opinions expressed.

Things to remember:

(1) The server for this board is NOT IN THE UNITED STATES.

(2) If the forum is only open for shiny, happy positive comments from people, what good is it? Should we just not mention anything bad, ever? Maybe I’m jaded but life’s not all sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows.

(3) People for whom C&F is the only Internet forum of communication have a weirdly skewed view. Look at any board established by a company to discuss its products (like Apple’s forums, for example). They’re filled with messages both good AND bad, including discussions about positive AND horribly negative experiences with (in this case, for example) Apple equipment and the Apple Store, or whatever.

I mean, is it all conjecture, or are web forums really being closed down for people saying negative things? Does saying, “Pipe maker X screwed me,” serve as libel?

Certainly a forum needs decorum. But it’s one thing to post diatribes, and another to post genuine concerns. Why is it we’re comfortable trusting positive comments, but if someone posts a negative, everyone wonders about ulterior motives? I’m so damn jaded that when someone posts a message praising a pipemaker, for example, I wonder if they’re doing it for secondary gain. Heh.

It’s just that if a forum is going to have any real benefit, it has to have both. It’s not all good. And for a lot of people, for this tradition, things like this are the only way to obtain information . . . so where would they ever get such information?

Just wondering. The recent negative comments about dealings with pipemakers have been interesting in that they’re quite serious allegations leveled against pipemakers who are not, conventional-wisdom-wise, top echelon. They’ve sort of been allowed, and sort of not.

I’ve got more questions than answers. :slight_smile:

Stuart

24

I think you nailed it Stu. There are plenty of pipers who refuse to post ANYTHING to this board for fear of:

  1. Being flamed out of existance

  2. Threats of legal action

  3. Told their claims have no merit here.

So where then exactly DO these claims have merit? This isn’t just people peeing into the wind to see what happens. They’ve got genuine concerns and their pipemaker etc. isn’t doing anything to correct it. I would think this is a perfectly valid forum for discussing these sorts of things. Lord knows I’ve tried in the past.

True dialogs should be kept as civil as possible sure, but anyone who’s screwed out of thousands of dollars (which may be able to be replaced with a LOT of hard work) and years of their life (which we can never get back) has a legitamite case and should be allowed to post as such without all the mudslinging about “What do you know? I could pipe your ass under the table!” or “You should be careful or the maker will sue you!” and all the other tripe.

Very interesting this turn of events…

25

Moved this to the poll thread.

26

I agree with, brianc,stu,Brian Lee, I have had problems with a maker in
the past who coursed me a lot of up set, if you post something in public that “IS” the truth! and have the evidence to prove it about this person it is “not” liable, it is “liable” only when untrue!,this is why when you order your pipes you should get in writing precisely what you have ordered and a rough idea of date of completion and price agreed,if your maker is not prepared to do “this” I’d go else where, I know people have problems in life and most of us are quite understanding at these times, the maker can simply let his customers know by a simple telephone call or E.mail of any delay of they goods. thats my two penny worth. :sunglasses:

27

I agree wholeheartedly with brianc and the rest. I have suffered similar abuse by a guitar repairman in the past, I know what it’s like. I certainly wish someone had been able to warn me off, and would like to do the same for anyone else thinking of trusting this guy. Why shouldn’t buisinessmen be held accountable anymore, especially when they want cash up front? It’s easy: if you want a good reputation, earn it.

28

…

29

It seems there are still a number of highly respectable makers in the world today who can in fact be trusted completely to follow up on their word. My greatest fear is for other new pipers to go through what I did about three years ago now when I was looking and to only hear the good and not the bad. If I would have known more then about what I know now I would have made a VERY different choice in ordering my first set.

I do hope however that we can all list our issues in a constructive way - and also without being torn to shreds by the people “who have only known good things to come from X maker.” Once upon a time, I seem to recall Dale put together a list of whistles on the board, something like the 20-30 most popular brands; everything from the cheapest cheapies to the most expensive hand mades. In this list, he gathered information from many players and listed not only the general playing characteristics that made each whistle sound as it did, but also the company/person who made them and a little on their business practices.

I would think something like this might be a good idea asuming it could be updated as needed with current information. It would of course be a massive undertaking and would need to be worked out in as unbiased a manner as possible to present both good and bad experiences equally.

I don’t know about you guys, but if a seller on ebay had 1,000 positive feedback over five years, but that ten from the last month or two were negative, I’d think twice about dealing with them - especially if there was a pattern of slow shipment, or product not being what was promised. I can only assume that any smart shopper would want to know the same type of information. None of us would buy a car without doing at least some very basic background checking on the car itself, it’s makers, and what sort of warranties/protection we had against spending thousands on a lemon.

It’s a lot of money, and no one gains when a maker business practice isn’t on the up and up. By the same token, if a maker is consistent all the time with meeting or beating promise dates, and routinely keeping costs down and quality high then folks should certainly know about that as well. And of course, what their wait is, and exactly the type of piper the maker is willing to sell too ie: anyone, targeting beginners, ‘experts’ only…etc.

Just some random thoughts. I doubt this list will ever come into being for us as it would take massive amoutns of time and energy to see it through. However it is for this very reason I still believe the dissemination of information, both good and bad, about makers and their business is so vitaly important on this forum.

30

Hey, Brian, I really do agree with you on this stuff, as we need to know the details of who’s great, good and bad… and especially which makers to avoid at all costs, and the reasons why.

But, as Dale seems to want to avoid getting angry emails from pissed off posters, he may take this forum off the server. There is that possibility, you know, and I wouldn’t want that to happen.

So, what to do? Keep it civil? I don’t really know. It does seem as if the new moderator doesn’t say too much.

I can also understand that some people expect miracles from a pipe-maker, and are also less than civil when dealing with them. Some people are also just jerks, and that usually gets them into all kinds of trouble… and then they blame it on the other guy… so, what to do?

Anyway, I always admire your train of thought, and consider you a great asset to this forum.

31

Too bad Kevin removed the comments he made about this topic.
They were very accurate and totally relevant. It clarified Dale’s position and nothing more needed to be said. No opposing opinion needed to be voiced.

Brian, if you feel the need to post up-to-the-minute pipemaker status, use the power of your website to post such information. You can create a forum to voice any unresolved or past disputes. This way, you can take all the credit (and heat) without folks sending Dale, Rich or Alan messages everytime they get annoyed with something found on C&F.

32

Tony, I think you’ve misunderstood me here just a bit - let me see if I can clarify:

I’m not interested in an “up to the minute” play by play of every maker, but certainly more recent than “I bought X set from X maker twenty years ago and his service was great!”. That doesn’t really tell anyone interested now what they might need to make a well informed desicion regarding X makers current business ethics and practices or the quality of their work.

Usually both of these will improve for a maker over time, but sometimes they take a nose dive. More than one of us have experienced this and would, I’m pretty sure, have liked to have known a bit more about the situation we were getting ourselves into beforehand. It’s just about information, not creating heat. If a maker does great work and offers consistant service to all customers great. If not, then let the maker’s past habits speak for themself. And let those who have experienced those habits firsthand speak as well.

And of Dale, Rich and Alan, none have contacted me off list to say anything about having issues with postings. This board does indeed get heated sometimes, and I have to think that much of the time it is because someone who has been wronged by no fault of their own isn’t given a chance to voice their experience without being trampeled. Perhaps if some folks were ready to really listen and offer solutions, instead of just denouncing any negative comment as a rant or tyrade or libel or whatever, more would be said, and more would be worked out.

Personally, I could have used a lot more help in making past decisions. I do hope everything is worked out with Roberts at any rate. This makes the troubles I’m having with my maker feel a bit more trivial in comparison - doens’t make them right, just a bit less important. I wouldn’t want to be dealing with this and I think it does indeed do the piping world a service to know and understand some of what’s going on with his business at present.

Take care Tony…

Bri~

33

OK…

OK… expose, right?

OK, update, right?

OK, feedback, right?

Sure, but that’s corporate. literally thousands of people are involved. If Murphy looses a finger on the lathe, Fred takes his place. We’re talking pipes here. Usually one guy does every operation including answering the phone. Guarantee, right?

Alert, right?

OK, it’s clear. No… wait.

Uh… 'cause they’re the administratiors and didn’t require your input. Right??

Brian, let’s just leave this Roberts thing alone. Stop picking the scab. If it heals with a scar… so be it. You don’t want to stay connected in any way. Or do you?

Sincerely Brian, let it just fizzle out.

34

OK Tony, will do - but please know this isn’t about Roberts or any other particular maker - it’s about useful ways of disseminating information to as many people as possible. That’s all. I realize that ebay is huge and that the piping world is not. I just used it to try and present a workable analogy but perhaps I used a bad comparison there. Sorry.

No scabs here that I see.

Take care,

Brian~