Since we’re straying afield, here’s a question nagging at me: How can the D whistle be called a “C instrument” when Cnat is not even to be had on its basic tonehole array, except by the circuitous trick of crossfingering? Serious question, y’all; the phrase “in one’s right mind” arises. Maybe I’m just thick.
Recall my first post on this thread:
There are two naming conventions happening at once:
- Traditional naming convention, where the instrument’s pitch is whatever actually sounds when you play a D fingering
- Classical naming convention, where the instrument’s pitch is whatever actually sounds when you play a C fingering
Yes, I recall that - but coming solely from the traditional perspective as I do, point 2 clarifies nothing for me; honestly, it just comes off as noise, even though I understand that there’s logic and reason of its own kind in the classical convention, otherwise it wouldn’t be in such widespread use. It would seem that I need to have my hand held in understanding classical naming convention. Examples - possibly numerous ones - might help.
Yeah, sorry, I don’t understand why you don’t understand. At the risk of being condescending (sorry in advance, really) maybe it would help to point out that I’m talking about a naming convention. From wiki: A naming convention is a convention (generally agreed scheme) for naming things. In the traditional world, we use one convention… but in the classical world, they use another. It’s really just that simple.
Like, why did “we” pick D? Why not G? (Note, this would essentially follow bansuri naming convention) Most musicians tune to A (both in orchestras and traditional session), so why didn’t we pick A (in both communities)? In my high school band days, the brass and reed band (actually there were no strings at my high school, so just “the band”) tuned to Bb, so why not Bb?
I have theories, but I don’t really know “why” C was picked. It certainly wasn’t always the norm, it was definitely something that developed over time, but in the end, why doesn’t actually matter. I’m discussing what is, not why it is 
As an aside, there’s another aspect to this, which is that A meaning 440Hz is also a convention, and somewhat arbitrary as well.
I appreciate your wish not to sound condescending, but no worries. I am genuinely adrift, here, and am seeking guidance. I usually know condescension when I encounter it.
That I understand.
This I do not. What is “C fingering”? Isn’t it going to be different on every pitch of whistle? The C scale on C and D whistles is going to be fingered very differently. Or does the phrase “C fingering” have nothing to do with the C scale per se, but is just a way of denoting fingering based on the bell note as the tonic?
The fingering for the note C.
Editing to add, I have in the past said this, which always leads to confusion about what is meant by “C note” or “D note”:
There are two naming conventions happening at once:
- Traditional naming convention, where the instrument’s pitch is whatever actually sounds when you play a D note
- Classical naming convention, where the instrument’s pitch is whatever actually sounds when you play a C note
So henceforth I shall try to remember to say it both ways:
There are two naming conventions happening at once:
- Traditional naming convention, where the instrument’s pitch is whatever actually sounds when you play a D (ie the fingering on that instrument for the note D)
- Classical naming convention, where the instrument’s pitch is whatever actually sounds when you play a C (ie the fingering on that instrument for the note C)
The more one writes about transposition, the more confusing it gets, so I always aim for as succinct an explanation as possible, but in this case, I guess the extra note is necessary 
You know what, I’ll write more and be more confusing, and give an example:
–In the traditional world, a whistler will say “I’m playing the fingering XXX XXX, ie 6 fingers down, and I call that a D, and it’s sounding as a D, so I’m calling this a concert pitch instrument, aka a D instrument”
– In the classical world, a whistler will say “I’m playing the fingering OXX OOO, ie the 2nd and 3rd fingers down only, and I call that a C, and it’s sounding as a C, so I’m calling this a concert pitch instrument, aka a C instrument”
Both of these whistlers mean exactly the same thing, they’re just using different naming conventions and different reference points.
Fun counter example, and going back the OP, I’ve just learned that unlike most instrument families (whistles, flutes, pipes, clarinets, saxophones), recorders don’t do this - so a Soprano recorder player will play X XXX OOO O and call it a G (full disclosure, I don’t know recording fingering schemes, so this is a guess and probably wrong), but an Alto recorder played will play the same fingering and call it something else! So the OP could do that with a C whistle (traditional naming convention here) and decide to learn XXX XXX means C, if they want. That way seems more confusing to me, but you can certainly do whatever you want…
Oh, dear. 
TBH, to me it’s a wonder that the classical music world gets anything done!
Indeed! But I hope you saw the short answer to your question:
C fingering means the fingering for the note C.
In other words, if you play a C, does a C sound, or something else?
It answers itself. But then am I to understand that every whistle, whatever its pitch, is classically considered a C instrument?
No, of course not. When you play a Bb whistle (trad convention), what note sounds when you play OXXOOO? Hint, it’s not C! Whatever note is produced with respect to the fingering for the note C, which for whistles is OXXOOO, is the name in classical terminology.
Why do traditional musicians call it a Bb whistle? Because when you play the fingering XXX XXX (ie the fingering for the note D), you get… a Bb.
It’s a point I failed to make in my previous contribution to this discussion but maybe I’ll fare better this time. The concept of concert-pitched instruments is defined independently of the context-sensitive nomenclatures used to designate the sizes of instruments. Any instrument that sounds a D (or E or F or G) when the player is producing what they regard as a note with the same name, is at concert pitch by definition. This is commonly reflected in the way the performer labels their instruments — in one way or another — but the naming conventions are a separate issue.
“Concert pitch” itself is the A to which an instrument is tuned, or a group tunes. It has varied over the range of about a major third over its entire known history and musicians have often needed to deal with more than one clearly different level. Present-day recorder players have to play at modern A440, and at least two earlier but contemporaneous Baroque standards, A415 and A390. They need separate but nominally identical instruments for each and, bracing myself for what may happen next, that’s the root of what are now treated as transposing instruments.
I should point out that in ITM parlance, flutes and uilleann pipes with a D bell note are termed as being at “concert pitch”. Something to keep in mind, just in case future discussions arise.
I was going to reply to that directly afterwards, saying I thought it was very succinct and clear, but I went for a walk instead.
On my walk I realised that rather than “when you play a C [or D] fingering” might be better put as “when you play the fingering for the note that is C [or D] in standard staff notation written out for your instrument.” I surmise that when learning a ‘Bb instrument’ one is told what fingering makes the C note on the stave (even though what sounds is not a C)). I have heard a clarinet player when asked for an A respond with “my A or concert A” as if they were normally thinking of the notes named as written not as sounding. Like a whistler playing a C whistle may still think of the 6 finger note as D.
Yes, and no…
so a Soprano recorder player will play X XXX OOO O and call it a G (full disclosure, I don’t know recording fingering schemes, so this is a guess and probably wrong)
Called and sounding G, so not wrong.
but an Alto recorder played will play the same fingering and call it something else!
Called and sounding C, so also correct.
But… recorders in other keys (e.g. sixth flute, fourth flute, voice flute etc.) don’t normally require the player to learn yet more fingerings. For instance, voice flute (sounding a minor third below alto) would typically be notated as alto sounding lower (analogous to A clarinet if you like), and a nifty baroque convention of recorder players reading flute music in French violin clef with changed key signature and alto fingerings actually produces the same sounding pitches from voice flute and traverso.
And… recorders are confusingly usually known by their bell (seven-finger) notes, with the alto called an F recorder despite not being an ‘F instrument’, although this would work if you regarded soprano fingerings as standard. Which they’re not!
Something I very carefully pointed out…
Well, except that it doesn’t depend on the existence of sheet music, because it’s much easier to say “play a D!” and mean XXX XXX (for the whistle) rather than “play all fingers down!” regardless of the actual pitch of the instrument.
@Peter Duggan - I know nothing about recorders except that they’re weird. But wouldn’t the bell note naturally correspond to the classical music terminology? An 8 keyed flute has a bell note of C, and happens to also be called a C instrument in the classical world, and I thought recorders basically had the same extra pinky operated c#/c notes (but holes not keys)
Only if, as I said, you regarded soprano fingerings as standard. But historically there’s probably a stronger case for alto fingerings as standard, at least in baroque times.
An 8 keyed flute has a bell note of C, and happens to also be called a C instrument in the classical world, and I thought recorders basically had the same extra pinky operated c#/c notes (but holes not keys)
They do, but the current dual fingering convention makes C recorders (three fingers G, bell note C) and F recorders (three fingers C, bell note F) all C instruments in the classical transposing instruments sense. Which is, yes, a bit weird!
Call it a re-emphasis. 
That just shifts the onus from the person making that statement to the whistle player. More information than a single note name is usually needed to determine the appropriate whistle for whatever tune is being discussed. A plausible alternative directive in a group context where no form of music notation is employed might be, “The tune is in D major, so if you’re playing a D whistle the key note is your six-finger note. If you’re playing an G whistle, it’s the two-finger note.” Tin whistlers also commonly read tablature and many rely on it, so direct reference to the fingering can arguably be more streamlined than going via the name of the intended sounding pitch.
The Renaissance instruments were termed recorders but the Baroque alto was more often referred to as the “common flute.” The qualifier was also frequently foregone and in contexts where the transverse flute was called a “German flute” the alto recorder was sometimes an “English flute.” Peter mentions the period names for Baroque recorders of other sizes in another contribution to this discussion: “sixth flute, fourth flute, voice flute etc.”
The current soprano/alto/tenor/bass array is far more recent. The primary position of F fingering shifted to C fingering during the development of the English flageolet. From there, all else is tin whistle history. This is discussed further, together with the interface between staff notation and tablature, in a blog post here (already mentioned in another thread).
Tin whistlers also commonly read tablature and many rely on it
Other than rank beginners using tabs as a temporary crutch, I don’t think that holds true at all.
But for the sake of argument, run with it.