Your argument would mean a melody player who doesnt sing or know the words to a song is also faking it when accompanying a singer. Mike
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âFakingâ is surely putting it too strongly. But a melody player accompanying a singer who is responsive to melodic, textural and thematic nuances in the singerâs approach and adapts to fit will do a better job, other things being equal, than one who doesnât. Knowing the words can help here. But I donât think the analogy is a very good oneâthe argument doesnât imply this much. Playing countermelody or interspersing melodic comments without knowing the melody is closer. I wouldnât want to try it myself.
U2, I carefully re-read yours and 'enders post and see that it was in fact me that missed the point âŚIâll let you guys get on with it.I,ll just add this..one thing I have noticed, is a tendency of some guitarists to imprint the same harmonies over tunes regardless with an overuse of sweet maj 7 sounding chords for dramatic effect and this, as a guitar player who does know the tune can be an irritation.Mike
In response, the use of melody over drone may be heard to your ears as harmony, but I referred specfically to the figured bass practice of harmonizing melodies based on scale tones, not the use of drones, which are much older in music history.
For example, sitars in Indian music have sympathetic strings underneath melody strings that ring . You could say that its harmony, but not purposeful harmony. That music is considered monodic, not harmonic even though the presence of harmony could be inferred. Never modulates but thirds and fifths etc do occurâŚ
As far as I can tell, the use of regulators in pipes etc echoes that practice and the ancient character of bagpipes themselves, not Monteverdi , Vincenzo Galilei and the Florentine Camerataâs adoption of figured bass and all that followed.
So often, disagreements start from not having the same defintion of terms. When I refer to harmonization, thatâs what I meantâŚ
DADGAD guitarists seem to use a combination of their own ears and musical impulses deriving from the tuning, plus chord constructions based on the modes. Its something in between the drones and the figured bass and is pretty delightful to my ears.
Hello everyone,
I know that this seems off-track now, but I was overjoyed to see this thread come up. The question of Bluegrass and Irish music have recently been very prominent in my life.
I love Irish traditional music (or IRTRD as you seem to call it). I play tin whistle, low whistle, and uilleann pipes. Recently, I was introduced by my brother (a jazz/rock drummer) to some friends of his who play bluegrass. The duo is made up of two brothers who play mostly mandolin, guitar and occasionally 5-string banjo. They are amazingly talented musicians (considering I also play guitar) and were incredible to watch.
I had heard bluegrass before and liked it, but never really got deep into it. However, when I heard them play and listened to their stile, I felt inside that I knew whistles and pipes would sound good with them and that I could play with them. I could almost hear the pipes and whistles in my head along with them. I dismissed the notion as crazy thoug, and went back to practicing my jigs and reels at home.
However, it turned out that one of the band members (the mandolin player- Paul) and I ended up going together with a group of friends to the coast for the Fourth of July. He just happened to bring his mandolin banjo, and I of coarse brought my pipes and whistles. He was very interested in some Irish music so while at the beach, I showed him a couple of jigs. He picked up both tunes within a 5-10 minutes, and we were away with a small and short jam session. I loved how he would let me play one time through the song solo while playing rythum, and then the next time he would play the tune and I would play accompanying notes such as a fiddle does. He stated the similarities between Bluegrass and Irish music (already mentioned on this message board) including fiddle tunes in Bluegrass and that he really liked it a lot. Also, many fiddle tunes in bluegrass are already called reels or hornpipes (jigs are not as common).
Later that day, he in turn taught me an old fiddle tune âLeather Britchesâ (for mentioned on this thread, I guess it is Lord McDonaldâs Reel in tradional Irish music).
We had such a good time playing together, that a few days later back at home he called me up and asked if I wanted to play with him and his brother at a little coffee shop. I was, of coarse, enthralled and honored to play with them.
We had a great time and really liked the way it sounded. I could improvise along with them for solo riffs and do rythum much the same way a fiddle does in bluegrass (you would have to see it).
We have just kept playing together, I have learned their songs, and I have taught them more reels and hornpipes. While the pipes and whistles are not a traditional bluegrass instrument, they donât seem to care and like the sound (which I appreciate beyond statement).
By some great twist of fate, I am now a full member of the band and we play together whenever they have a gig. We are also looking to record sometime in the near future. I appreciate more than anything else that my friends would put their necks and reputationon the line at these bluegrass festivals for me to play with them. There are people out there (already mentioned) who probably wouldnât like the whistles and pipes in bluegrass because it is not a traditional bluegrass instrument.
Anyway, this has been the longest post of my life but thought it was pertinant and worth describing. Thanks
All the best,
Joseph
Weekender,
thanks so much. At one of our last concerts my brother Nathan (the drummer) was there and video taped the performance. I then took the tape and ran it into my computer and saved it a digital file. I have the whole 40 minutes (which is about 67 meg) or divided into individual songs (at around 10 meg each) However, I do not have a web site of my own and would love to post some of the songs to download (much the same way Phil Hardy does on his website). Anyone, have some advice how I could post them for people to download?
Thanks again Weekender,
Joseph
We have just kept playing together, I have learned their songs, and I have taught them
By some great twist of fate, I am now a full member of the band
Joseph. You lucked out. Your friends are very liberal minded. Many bluegrassers that I have met wouldnât have been much interested in your music. Maybe this is a new trend. Last summer I heard a whistle playing with some bluegrassers at a festival. I was surprised by how good it sounded. There are some other things that you might want to check out if you can find it. On Stephen Wadeâs Album Dancing Home thereâs an uilleann piper who plays along with the banjo on the old time tune Rye Straw. Seamus Egan does some work with Wade on Wadeâs second banjo album. Flute player Chris Norman has recorded several âfiddle tunesâ including Leather Britches, Liberty, Bitter Creek and so on. Some of this might be pretty hard to come by but his album Man with a Wooden Flute has a few on it. Tim OâBrienâs album The Crossing has a bit of flute and other interesting crossover stuff.
Steve,
thanks. I do feel lucky to be able to plasy with them, they are not only great musicians but some really great guys. None of that musicians arrogance you can get a lot, they are so humble. Also, they are both farely young (27 and 23, I am 24) which I think has to do something with it. They like jazz stuff at times too, such as Bela Fleck.
On 2002-09-25 18:18, The Weekenders wrote:
I dont have a big site to host but maybe you could take part of a whistle-heavy tune and post to Clips n Snips??
Weekender, I will see about putting some of the clips on the Clips & Snips site. Thanks for the suggestion.
Joseph
My background is that of old tyme fiddle. A lot of the old tyme tunes were brought over from Irish and Scottish decendents. They are our traditional fiddle tunes. My grandfather was a decendent from Ireland and played a lot of tunes that he brought form the homeland. Iâve heards many of those tunes "slightly different twist, and of course a number of names, (each fiddle tune could have 20 names associated with it) mostly because fiddle player can never remember the names so they
say , Oh I think itâs ???, and that sometimes sticks.. Anyway.. Reading Bill Munroeâs story, (a bit of it), he took a lot of that traditional old tyme fiddle, (once irish tunes and now with a new twist) and gave them that bluegrass flavour which was a lot of gospel, hillbilly and blues.. Thanks for Bill..
Iâm curious, anyone know of Kenny Bakers decendents?
Hi there 'enders.
Thanks for responding. You actually came very close to getting the real point of my posting which was deliberately cryptic. (I wasnât mocking you or the point you were making, which seemed pretty good to me, but rather the whole project of trying to nail down tradition in a definition as static as the one you were using.)
Just a few points. We do mean different things by âharmonyâ but your definition is closer to stipulative than mine I think. Harmony contrasts with discord. If two notes of different pitch âgo togetherâ according to the conventions of a style of music, whatever they may be, thatâs harmony to me. A D drone behind a modal tune in D is fine to my ears. But try droning on a note not in that particular D modal scale; say Eb perhaps. Harmony and discord seem to me like very good words to describe the difference here. But regulators are clearly playing chordsâthey donât just echo the dronesâand they come and go at precisely the points where the tune implies a modulation. This is probably ancient but it is very different from just doubling the melody.
I guess you were thinking of the tempered scale which made possible the whole ediface of sophisticated European harmony. And what you said about DADGAD guitar and its relation to that stuff is spot on in my view. (I play DADGAD guitar myself as well as similar stuff on bouzouki, as well as melody instruments. On concertina I actually try to ape the use of regulators in piping, as do the top players IMO.) The idea that melody instruments should continue to play modally while rhythm instruments play harmonies in a well-tempered scale but make concessions to the modal nature of the melody is alive and well not just in IRTRAD but in Gypsy music from Eastern Europe and in the blues. In all cases, the new possibilities for tension and resolution created by this is, in my view absolutely delicious. I think we both drink to that, eh? But this development isnât anti-traditional; itâs just tradition in the process of reinventing itselfâsomething itâs always done. That was my main (rather cryptic) point.
Any more on this and weâll need a new thread I fear.
Things ainât what they used to be but, then again, they never were.
[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-09-26 04:44 ]
Thanks everyone for participating on this thread and especially to Joseph for actually living it,and sharing the experience..I wish you success in your project. Peace, Mike
Fiddler31, where are you located? The reason I ask is that around where I live (Southwestern Ontario) traditional Ontario fiddling events are called âold tymeâ but I have hardly ever seen that spelling (tyme) anywhere else. Just curious.
Mike, I donât know whether you thought I was giving all of you a hint when I said a new thread might be in order. I just meant that the little exchange I was having with 'enders about tradition had nothing to do with bluegrass specifically but might interest people if located elsewhere.
As for bluegrassâcarry on please, Iâll keep reading.
After I run up and down Ayers Rock, Ill be thirsty!!! (Sorry, I forgot new politcally correct old aborigine name). Come to think of it, they mighta banned touchin it, right, causa desecration?? Just have to drink thenâŚ
Man, I wanna go anywhere to a place with a name like Woolawong so we can sing BIllabong!!
But seriously, if thats possible for me, Australia is on my list. I would love to visit.
So somedayâŚ
And Wombat, I promise, no croc or Irwin questions!!!
Mike and everyone,
thanks so much for all the encouragement, it really helps. The guys and I still donât know how most people at these Bluegrass festivals (the last one seemed more like Country Western than BluegrassâŚsheesh) are going to react to the inclusion of the whistles and pipes. But the guys donât seem to care, which is awesome. They just like the sound.
To keep you up to date, I am still hoping to post a couple of clips of us playing at one of our last concerts. I am going to try uploading today or tomorrow and I will let you guys know when I have done it.
Thanks again
GOD bless
Joseph
Mike