The interest generated on another thread has prompted me to post this one.I,ve long been a fan of Irish influenced Bluegrass.Artists such as Allison Krause and Tim O`brien are doing a lot to bridge the gap as well as the Chieftans and Martin Hayes.I would love to here others thoughts on this…other artists,whistle players etc. Peace, Mike 
We’ve talked about this connection in a few other threads recently. One was on the whistle in bluegrass music:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?topic=5004&forum=1
Another was on Scots-Irish Music. It flows in a most interesting way into genealogy and national identity issues, but has some discussion of overlapping musical influences.
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?topic=4220&forum=1
Not trying to discourage a new conversation here, but just thought I’d point you to a little background that I was aware of.
A big fan of Tim O’Brien myself,
Carol
Bluegrass has had many sources of influence-not just Irish or Celtic. Bill Monroe learned a lot of blusey stuff from an African-American musician as well as “fiddle tunes” from his uncle Pen. The banjo itself is derived from African instruments. Another strong influence is all kinds of American gospel and religious music, both black and white. There is a strong influence there in the harmony singing of bluegrass. Other influences come from minstrel music, American popular music and jazz. Think of the quasi-improvised breaks that are prevalent in bluegrass. Also ballads of the British Isles. I don’t think it’s correct at all to think of bluegrass as just some sort of Americanized Irish music. Certainly some ties are there, particularly to the older pre-bluegrass dance tunes. Remember that bluegrass was not distinguished as a separate style until the late 1940s. Some musicians still don’t recognize the term-Ralph Stanley, for instance. The dance music/fiddle tune tradition is actually stronger in what is called old time music than bluegrass. There tunes are the backbone of the style and much of that appears to be related to Scottish and Irish influences.
Steve
On 2002-09-23 15:25, SteveK wrote:
. The dance music/fiddle tune tradition is actually stronger in what is called old time music than bluegrass. There tunes are the backbone of the style and much of that appears to be related to Scottish and Irish influences.Steve
Interesting thoughts,thanks.It may also explain the division that exists between bluegrass and Irish musicians here in Austria where old time music is something of a grey area.Bluegrass musicians can be pretty hard headed as can players of traditional Irish music and it would seem that groups like Nickel Creek and the Chieftains are doing much to bring the two together.A bluegrass mandolin player friend of mine has even expressed an interest in learning and playing low whistle, no doubt after listening to Tim O`briens work. Mike
Tim O’Brien is a very wide ranging musician but I don’t think of him as a bluegrass musician. He attended the first Zoukfest a few years ago and I had a chance to talk to him. We mainly talked about West Virgina fiddle music and older fiddle players. Definitely pre-bluegrass. At his part of an informal concert he played Yew Piney Mountain on the fiddle. A very old tune which sounds like an adaptation of a bagpipe tune to me. It’s on The Crossing with Seamus Egan on flute. The only thing approaching bluegrass on the album is the Scruggs/Gavin rendition of Leather Britches (Lord McDonald’s Reel).
Steve
OK here’s another thing. I heard Bill Evans give a banjo history demonstration and performance. He’s a very good bluegrass banjo player who also plays older styles and is something of an historian. Somebody asked him about bouzoukis. I don’t know why. It was inappropriate at that point. He commented that the last instrument to be admitted to bluegrass was the Dobro. He also commented that Irish music seems more open to new instruments often assimilates new ones-the bouzouki being a case in point. He said he hoped that the Dobro would be the last instrument to enter bluegrass because he liked it as is. Not much room for the whistle if that kind of thinking is what is prevalant in bluegrass.
Steve
On 2002-09-23 17:09, SteveK wrote:
Not much room for the whistle if that kind of thinking is what is prevalant in bluegrass.
Steve
There’s bluegrass, and then there’s bluegrass snobs. To a bluegrass snob it ain’t a guitar unless it’s a Martin, etc. Etc. Every genre has its snobs, bluegrass snobs are just more irritating than most.
John
On 2002-09-23 17:09, SteveK wrote:
He said he hoped that the Dobro would be the last instrument to enter bluegrass because he liked it as is. Not much room for the whistle if that kind of thinking is what is prevalant in bluegrass.
Imagine someone asking about the introduction of the recorder into Irish music. Bill Evans reply now seems very, very good.
On 2002-09-23 17:04, SteveK wrote:
Tim O’Brien is a very wide ranging musician but I don’t think of him as a bluegrass musician. He attended the first Zoukfest a few …Steve
Bluegrass,newgrass or whatever,its great stuff and I much prefer his to the contest fiddle style of Mark O`conner which although fantastic has little to do with Irish music.Are there any prominent whistle players out there apart from Seamus Eagan bridging the gap that you know of? Mike
On 2002-09-23 17:22, OutOfBreath wrote:
There’s bluegrass, and then there’s bluegrass snobs.
That sounds like anti-bluegrass snob snobbery. If you are talking about Bill Evans, he’s not a snob. Liking something the way it is and not wanting to change it is not snobbery. Snobbery invloves disdain for something else. That isn’t Evans’ style at all.
Steve
On 2002-09-23 17:43, mike.r wrote:
Are there any prominent whistle players out there apart from Seamus Eagan bridging the gap that you know of? Mike
I don’t know of any. Egan has also played with old time banjo player Stephen Wade on some tunes. Wade has also used an uilleann piper some. A little wierd but kind of nice.
Steve
On observations about bluegrass traditionalism:
Risking offense with these characterizations, I think. But I find that anything that is called “Traditional” has its bigots, provincials and narrow-mindedness all done in the name of protecting and preserving the institution.Sometimes it seems like the obligation of Californians is to always consider the options and innovations of set styles…then later the revisionists come along to celebrate the “diversity” of a narrow folkloric practice…I guess you could say that some like their musical participation liquid, and some aerosol. Harmonizing IRTRAD is definitely aerosol , for example.
In terms of the bouzouki, I would imagine that there are some IRTRAD lovers who consider anything with bouzouki to not be trad at all. As a lifelong guitar player, I find that my instrument is but a recent arrival as well and highly suspect, especially the invented DADGAD tuning, which has become somewhat “standard” because so many esteemed soloists use it for accompaniment. I love what Donal Lunny has done but I wonder if he is on someone’s dartboard target for his innovations.
To my ears, there has been an uneasy solution of sorts on the records: namely, the harmonizations are lightly played and purposefully inconclusive (often due to tuning chord-forms in DADGAD).
I find it amusing that a non-Irish newcomer (like me) can attain instant “coot-hood” by fixating on a style and emulating it. The more I learn about IRTRAD, the more I realize that the groups that attracted me to the style are pretty non-traditional after all.
My first encounters with Bluegrass offered the same impressions, though as expressed in thread. A musical style defined and initiated by Bill Monroe with certain instruments, no women allowed etc. Because I live in the Bay Area, one of the homes of “Newgrass” (David Grisman, Good Ol Persons, etc), it was explained to me how the departures led to that different name…
Whats notable is that something so traditional is only 60 or so years old!
Best wishes.
Enders - Instant “coothood”? I doubt it. You’re just trying to get out of eating chitlins:-) . I don’t doubt that you hit the correct chord, but haven’t most of us seen the guy who can figure out the chord progressions but has no time to learn the tunes? The best rhythm players actually KNOW the tunes - no fakin’. They know ‘em inside out just like the melody players. Because they do, they are able to compliment the melody much more completely, IMHO. The bodhran may be a better example than guitar, or at least more easily seen to make the point I’m trying to make, but there’s a world of difference in knowin’ and fakin’. All the best.
On 2002-09-23 18:20, U2 wrote:
Enders - Instant “coothood”? I doubt it. You’re just trying to get out of eating chitlins:-) . I don’t doubt that you hit the correct chord, but haven’t most of us seen the guy who can figure out the chord progressions but has no time to learn the tunes? The best rhythm players actually KNOW the tunes - no fakin’. They know ‘em inside out just like the melody players. Because they do, they are able to compliment the melody much more completely, IMHO. The bodhran may be a better example than guitar, or at least more easily seen to make the point I’m trying to make, but there’s a world of difference in knowin’ and fakin’. All the best.
U2 points out something that is very true. GHB pipers in bands are famous for looking down their chanters at the drummers, however, it was once pointed out to some that most drummers know not only their drum parts BUT the pipe music, most pipers do not. No one can do justice on rhythm without knowing the tune as well as those playing the lead.
It sure sounds as if I’m on the Mandolin Cafe messageboard, to hear you guys talking about bluegrass.
JP
I’m something of a traditionalist. But traditionalist what?
Anyway, I just wanted to post a few links to some bluegrass and oldtime MP3’s.
On 2002-09-23 18:20, U2 wrote:
but there’s a world of difference in knowin’ and fakin’. All the best.
I sing,play fiddle,mandolin,whistle,guitar and bodhran.Your idea that non melody players are faking it is misleading and missing the point.Guitar and bodhran simply play another role in the big picture.Your argument would mean a melody player who doesnt sing or know the words to a song is also faking it when accompanying a singer. Mike
I dunno Mike, U2 was responding to my notes about traditional and the harmonizations.
I had characterized some of what I had heard as an uneasy compromise of the fact that true IRTRAD is unharmonized and I think he was pointing out that good players really have a handle on the totality of the melody. I dont think he was knockin guitarists, except maybe the over-confident general guitarists who approach IRTRAD as they would bluegrass or country…
Aside from this direct comment, I would say this to continue thread: its all music, but the moment that IRTRAD is harmonized and the melody player becomes aware of the harmony instrument and makes adjustments (so to speak), its forever changed from what is a pure melodic style. Doesn’t make it BAD music, in fact, its quite beautiful but different. I played good ol SiBeagSiMor with some guys and it had become quite the dadgad guitar fantasy version. I adjusted but made these mental observations on the spot.
In true IRTRAD, it seems that thickness of texture is achieved from melodic doubling and percussion, rather than the post-Renaissance European form of harmonization derived from figured bass.
Most other folk music that I know of roughly follows the latter idea, but not IRTRAD.
that said, I have found that the DADGAD approach often shows profound sensitivity to the melody that is quite unlike hitting I IV V chords to your average folksong. Considering the caliber of the trad artists, its no surprise that they are using guitarist with that kind of sensibility.
[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-09-24 15:29 ]
Weekenders:
… true IRTRAD is unharmonized.
Leaving aside the question of whether a melody against a drone constitutes a harmony (why not?) this account is really interesting. Apparently a solo uilleann piper can be playing IRTRAD for most of the set but stops playing IRTRAD every time he or she plays the regulators.
Ah, now at last I see what all the fuss about purism is about! For those pipers seeking authenticity the trick is to just buy a practice set—well, that’s certainly a lot cheaper.
miker - Thanks for taking the time to think about my statement enough to apply it to other scenarios. I provided an example in attempt to define context. I was making the statement that anyone with an ear skilled enough to figure out the rhythm and/or chord progression, even the melody, does not necessarily capture the essence of a style and perform it well. The supposition that music is but rhythm and notes omits the most powerful aspect of the art (see midi). I don’t believe my statement is arrogant or snobby, just true.
I have observed the differences I referenced with me own two ears, so most lengthy argument in the world will not convince me that a drummer who can stay right on top of the beat and sub-divide it to all extremes understands the music without putting in time to know where the tune is going. You may be focused on my use of the word “faking.” I don’t know, but the expressive differences by players engulfed in a particular genre, over those simply learning or visiting, seem obvious.
For me there is a period while learning a tune in which I recognize I really am not playing it as I ultimately want to. I “fake it” during that time. I don’t let that stop me in participating and throwing my energy into the collective pot. The session is about much more than musical excellence, but miserable in the absence of the quest. I personally find the most reward in the melodies after becoming intimately familiar with a tune and hearing multiple settings. I suppose the most important thing, however, is to have a good time. IMHO