You mean helping with the sensitization? That might actually hurt things, I think. If he were to use a non-drying oil, like we seem to like to do, it might just stir up a little of the blackwood oils and form a nice film of blackwood nastiness. I think that’s part of the reason that Skelton was advised to epoxy or put acrylic on the head, since they’d form a seal rather than a fluid layer.
I guess anecdotally (from what people with such allergies have said), I feel like I remember people saying that it either didn’t help or made things worse. But, perhaps one of the afflicted can shed some light . . . ?
Bore oil, is based on Tung or Linseed and it has hardeners, basically it dries to a hard
seal, Its nothing like your non drying oil such as Almond oil, and the oils from the wood could not surface to the outside.
It would be like spraying a thinn coat of Lacquer, which could work as well.
If you’re sensitized (remember, it’s not an allergy per se, but why nitpick?), I know of only two real solutions: distance (including abandonment or repacement of the instrument), or a barrier (including lip plates, cyanoacrylawhatsit…aww, superglue, etc.). A polymer medium might be a good solution, too. One solution I tried on the Williams’ original headjoint was clear lacquer, and this helped, but I still had a bit of reaction, but minor. My suspicions about that, unscientific as it is, came from this reasoning: it’s not unknown for sensitization to allow reactions to other woods. Lacquer is made from sap of the Lac tree. Lac tree sap is caustic. Ergo, duh. Oh, well, the lacquer was already in place, and I was OK with it. I would try a polymer next time instead. Fortunately I can get a silver lip plate this time.
Bore oil, is based on Tung or Linseed and it has hardeners, basically it dries to a hard
seal, Its nothing like your non drying oil such as Almond oil, and the oils from the wood could not surface to the outside.
It would be like spraying a thinn coat of Lacquer, which could work as well.
I tried to post earlier and lost my internet connection. No! The HORROR!
Anyway . . .
Eilam, yes, point taken. Correct.
Nans, Lacquer is sap from the LAC tree? Awesome trivia! So, does liquor come from the Liq tree? Or the Li tree?
But, hmm . . . since I have a penchant for such things, I just looked up “lacquer” in an etymology dictionary. Here’s what it said.
lacquer > - 1673, from Fr. > lacre > “a kind of sealing wax,” from Port. > lacre> , from > lacca > “resinous substance,” from Ar. > lakk> , from Pers. > lak> , from Skt. laksa[/i]; related to Eng. > lax, lox > “salmon,” and the substance was perhaps originally so called from being somewhat the color of salmon.
Looking it up in a reg’lar type of reference mentions that lacquer usually came from an Asian sumac tree that has come to be known as a “Japanese lacquer” tree. Interesting, nonetheless.
I wonder if anyone’s tried epoxy. It seems like making an epoxy lip-plate area, at least, would function like a lip plate. I agree that lip-plates are cool; I have a patent-head Rudall with a very nice headjoint band (cf. the flute porn thread).
Well, anyway, Sturob, re: lac trees, that’s a bit of lore remembered from somewhere, and I’ve come across it more than once. YMMV. I don’t know the etymology of the name, but your research makes sense. I was aware that the source was a form of sumac. Very interesting stuff! I tend to be suspicious of dictionaries in any case; I recall one “definition” of capercaille as translating this bird as “horse of the woods”. Now that makes sense. As I recall, the Scots Gaelic for “chicken” is capar or something similar. I presume that whoever did the research was operating from Irish Gaelic sources, as the unattested presumption was that a corruption of the Irish capall might apply. So it’s all hit-or-miss to me in some cases.
“Lacquer, or shellac refers to all forms of purified lac - a natural resin secreted by the tiny lac insect on certain trees, principally in India and Thailand. Shellac has the distinction of being the only known commercial resin of animal origin. It is produced by a tiny red insect (Lac Lacifer)…During certain seasons of the year, these tiny red insects swarm in such great numbers that the trees at times take on a red or pinkish color. The female is the main shellac producer. While she is exuding lac, she is preparing herself to die after providing a fluid in which her eggs will mature…”
From The Story of Shellac put out by the Zinsser Co.
THink twice about using epoxy. Epoxy has the disadvantage of not being easily removed.
Shellac is much better at water proofing then oil, but it comes off with alcohol, so I guess we can count it off as a sealer for Irish music instrument.
I’ve used cyanoacrylate as a finish before, you can get a bottle of super thin and apply it with a finger (wear gloves).
Stop, Shoner, you’re confusing me with facts! Hmmm…I honestly thought that shellac and lacquer were two separate things, and that lacquer was a tree product.
Why not skip the lox and just put a shmear of cream cheese on the flute?
Yeah, I suppose no one outside NYC got that, and maybe certain parts of south Florida…
My actual guess is that the reaction is being hastened by saliva, as I have yet to hear anyone complain about fingers swelling, in spite of sweat/wood combinations. Fingertips are calloused, but it would seem at least that someone should have had a reaction, say, in the sweaty swirls of their left forefinger, against which the flute is held. This is the sort of spot that poison ivy will crop up, but no one has, to my knowledge, complained about their hands on a blackwood or cocus flute. So, if it’s really just the lip, any permanant or semi-permanent barrier should make a huge difference, eilam’s hardening oils or something also temporary-yet-sealing. Anyone ever tried a thick coat of beeswax there? I’d rather try that first than shellac a good flute.
I had a blackwood whistle (which I rarely played) for about 1 year - no problem.
then I got the blackwood flute and had no problems at all in the beginning
after about 6 weeks, the skin on my chin was sometimes slightly red and I thought it was just an irritation from playing various wind instruments (having my lower lip often wet with saliva) and also wind and cold weather at that moment
during the next 2 weeks, the skin just below the lower lip and the rim of the lower lip became gradually redder, itchy and then swollen with blisters. One night after playing, it felt as if I had champagne sparkling inside of my lip.
at that moment I was certain that the blackwood flute was the origin of these symptoms. I also realized that the linseed oil that I had used on it had become rancid, and the flute had a very strong and unpleasant smell. Following the advice of a clarinet-playing friend, I cleaned the flute with wet papertowels, then let it dry and put almond oil on it.
I did not play the flute for at least 1 week, being afraid the reaction could get worse, or touch the fingers as well (which didn’t happen)
then I tried to play the flute using tape around the embouchure and nail polish inside of the tonehole. This was not satisfying, and while my lips were ok, I often had a vague itchy feeling on my hands and on my face (I have a habit of thoughtlessly rubbing my cheeks with my hands when I’m nervous), so I did not play often, using rather my Delrin flute during that time.
4 months later I finally got the lipplate. It descends inside the tonehole, maybe 2 mm deep (I had found out that I need it that way, as my lower lip protrudes slightly inside the embouchurehole). While the protection for the lips was perfect now, I still got that slightly itchy feeling all over my hands and my face. I didn’t know whether it was nervousness or allergic reaction.
following the advice of fellow-chiffer Stan, I tried to avoid very carefully every contact between wood and face, not touching my face during playing, washing hands and lips after playing. Gradually the situation became better, no more disagreeable itching now.
For several months I have been totally careless now, letting the flute rest against my face between the tunes, or other nonsense of that kind. No allergic symptoms at all - thanks to the lipplate.
At one moment I had been wondering whether the linseed oil was the origin of my symptoms. I don’t think so, as the symptoms also appeared when I was playing the blackwood whistle, which was never in contact with linseed oil.
Now I hope this report can be useful for other allergic flute players. Good luck and don’t despair!
Nano, Good man. Check this one out: http://www.oldandsold.com/articles01/article800.shtml It would be interesting to have a lip plate brushed on with crushed mother of pearl, no? Any idea where to purchase the stuff?
I think they call that “Mother of toilet seat”. It’s a funny name but it’s real stuff, I think it’s crushed abalone or pearl bound in epoxy. They used it on whacky guitars & banjo’s alot for peghead overlays & fret markers.
I can categorically assure any parties concerned that I do not drool or spray when fluting. Actually, I’m guessing that a combination of sweat, skin oils and skin fineness (as compared to the fingers) are contributing factors.
…as I have yet to hear anyone complain about fingers swelling, in spite of sweat/wood combinations.
I’ve wondered at this, myself. Looking at and feeling the skin of my finger pads and tips, the skin of that area feels very much thicker than on the top surfaces of the fingers. This might be the factor.
As I recall, the Scots Gaelic for “chicken” is capar or something similar. I presume that whoever did the research was operating from Irish Gaelic sources, as the unattested presumption was that a corruption of the Irish capall might apply. So it’s all hit-or-miss to me in some cases.
Actually, I’m guessing that a combination of sweat, skin oils and skin fineness (as compared to the fingers) are contributing factors.
