Barra MacNeils play generations!!??

Whistle
21

Jens,

For years I’ve seen the same problem occuring on this board, it seems that when you write your thoughts, you should always have to add 4-5 sentences saying that “this is only my point of view and I’m open to other point of views”. Of course this is my point of view, since I’m writing the stuff, and of course I will sound “close-minded” since for me irish music is played in a certain way. But I never said that irish music should be played the way I want to play it, and I specifically stated that “some people on this board” think like I do. On my second post, I specifically stated that “this isnt the truth of life”. Now, if it sounds “snobbish” or “arrogant” I can’t do much about it. I didnt agree with what I understood from Wandering, and I tried to turn this into a meaningful debate.

22

On 2002-09-09 09:00, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
I agree completely with Az.
Unfortunately, asking for the definition of pure trad is like asking for the definition of the blues. If you don’t understand it then asking isn’t going to help.
Chris

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-09-09 09:04 ]

Well, see, the emphasis in my question should have been on the ‘you’. I was thinking, “Here’s someone who thinks Joannie Madden isn’t traditional, wow, he(?) must have a really stringent standard for “pure” Irish music.” What I mean is, I know what I think is pure drop, but I know some of my ideas don’t fit other peoples ideas. This goes back to the much-abused question of how much does it take to be “outside the tradition”.

I guess I did miss the point, though, I take it that Azalin did not mean to say that Madden or Nugent or anyone in particuliar are untraditional. Or did you, Azalin? Hmmmm? :wink:

Wandering,

What I meant is that the “pros” you’ve listed are only a very small part of the hundreds of pros out there, all of them at least as good as many of the people you’ve named. They’re all very good musicians, but I’m personnaly more impressed with some “unknown” players, and what whistle they play will have much more influence on me. I just wanted to point out that the whistle world is much more bigger than what some people think, and doesnt stop with Bergin, Madden, etc. What actually triggered my post is when you said “Should we likewise compare the Barra MacNeils with such pros as Joanie Madden (O’Riordan’s), Mary Bergin (Sindts)”… I personally don’t like this sentence, because for me these other hundreds of players are in the SAME ball park as your “pros” when it comes to trad. music and the way I’d like to play. I just wanted to give my point of view, I’m not saying this is the truth of life…

I definitely agree, though I haven’t had the good fortune of meeting a fraction of the players who you mention, though I have ran into a few. I live in the middle of no where and don’t get to travel much…

Oh, yeah, thanks Chris, about the definition of trad. music, I really don’t know, but after spending lotsa of time listening to music in sessions in Ireland, I just know that I want to play in a certain way, which I would define as pure traditionnal… But if for others irish music is Joanie Madden and Dave Spillane, well then I don’t see any problem to it!

Don’t ever EVER put Joannie Madden and Davy Spillane in the same boat! They may both be highly visible commercially speaking, but the music they create commercially is for most part totally different.

Actually, this is a perfect opportunity to present my theory of the the two classes of whistle players.

The first class are the musicians who are whistle players because they can play whistles well, they make very enjoyable music on them. They are whistlers because they play whistles.

The second class of whistlers are the ones who don’t play very well(though they may enjoy it just as much). To make up for not being great whistle players, they buy whistles. So, they are whistlers because they own whistles.

So the real difference is this: Class 1 expresses it’s love for whistle music by making whistle music and Class 2 expresses it’s love for whistle music by buying the tools to make whistle music. This explains why so many great players do their thing on Generations. :slight_smile:

Now the only thing I need for my theory is a catchy name…any suggestions? :slight_smile:

True Believer
Nate

[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-09-09 10:46 ]

23

Let’s apply a little logic here:

Turlough O’Carolan lived in Ireland, so that makes him Irish, right?

Turlough’s music appears in many tutorials and in the repertoires of many instrumentalists (esp. guitarists), so that makes him music Traditional, right?

Put these together, and guess what? O’Carolan’s tunes ARE Traditional Irish music! :smiley:

24

Might I suggest that the profusion of high end whistles that don’t sound like a Generation is pretty good evidence that there are lots of whistle players out there who are not looking for the Generation sound?

And I’d be curious to know what the demographics are with your Generation fans. While it’s true I’ve not been to Ireland to see what people are playing there, we have a lot of top notch musicians in this area, and a lot of great musicans come through on tour. I’ve seen damn few people under 35 who make Generations or Sindts their primary whistle.

It doesn’t seem terribly surprising to me that people who grew up when there were no high end whistles would like the Generation; it’s what they’re used to.

25

On 2002-09-09 10:19, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
Dude, Sweethearts? Sweethearts? I have NEVER seen a Sweetheart played by anyone (except for myself in a store), in Ireland, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Portland or anywhere else. I seriously do not think that many, if any, people who bought the thousand Sweethearts before you are serious players.

Perhaps not..but at least 1500+ of them have been sold. Which leads me to think that ‘better’ whistles probably are getting even more attention, dontcha think? I wouldn’t begin to guess the playing ability of thousands of people based solely on their choice of whistle. After all, I own a sweetheart, and I consider myself a “serious player”, even if I don’t consider myself in the same league as the great masters of the instrument. Granted, I did specifically buy it because it looked like a recorder, so would better fit in at certain rennaisance festivals…but I have played it at session.

26

Hey Azalin:
Just so you know..I’m not worked up over this thread. I think it’s providing a great opportunity to look at these recurring issues.

Greg

On 2002-09-09 10:31, Azalin wrote:
I didnt agree with what I understood from Wandering, and I tried to turn this into a meaningful debate.

27

On 2002-09-09 10:41, BrassBlower wrote:
Let’s apply a little logic here:

Turlough O’Carolan lived in Ireland, so that makes him Irish, right?

Turlough’s music appears in many tutorials and in the repertoires of many instrumentalists (esp. guitarists), so that makes him music Traditional, right?

Put these together, and guess what? O’Carolan’s tunes ARE Traditional Irish music! > :smiley:

Maybe so, BrassBlower, but I think when Azalin and Chris refer to trad Irish they are referencing the playing style, not the material being played.

Also, I disagree with your second premise. Simply because a tune is well known and widely published does not make it traditional. Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that many people do not consider O’Carolan traditional. It is well known that he had heavy Baroque influence and he actively tried to work that style of music into the Irish harp tradition, so there is weight behind the argument that his music is not pure Irish.

28

On 2002-09-09 10:35, energy wrote:
The first class are the musicians who are whistle players because they can play whistles well, they make very enjoyable music on them. They are whistlers because they > play > whistles.

The second class of whistlers are the ones who don’t play very well(though they may enjoy it just as much). To make up for not being great whistle players, they buy whistles. So, they are whistlers because they > own > whistles.

So the real difference is this: Class 1 expresses it’s love for whistle music by making whistle music and Class 2 expresses it’s love for whistle music by buying the tools to make whistle music. This explains why so many great players do their thing on Generations. > :slight_smile:

I absolutely believe that Class 2 people exist – they seem to pop up on this board frequently.

But not one of the talented under-35 Class 1 musicians that I know in Michigan primarily plays a Generation. And before you suggest that everyone is just lusting after expensive whistles, Susatos are very popular, and the guy who is perhaps the best player (actually not living in the area at the moment) has been know to play a Sweettone. We have lots of Burkes, handfuls of Water Weasels and O’Riordan’s. One kid plays an Abell.

(Well, okay, Colleen usually plays one of those O’Riordan hybrids; I think the body is a Generation. Does that count?)

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On 2002-09-09 10:31, Azalin wrote:
Jens,

For years I’ve seen the same problem occuring on this board, it seems that when you write your thoughts, you should always have to add 4-5 sentences saying that “this is only my point of view and I’m open to other point of views”. Of course this is my point of view, since I’m writing the stuff, and of course I will sound “close-minded” since for me irish music is played in a certain way. But I never said that irish music should be played the way I want to play it, and I specifically stated that “some people on this board” think like I do. On my second post, I specifically stated that “this isnt the truth of life”. Now, if it sounds “snobbish” or “arrogant” I can’t do much about it. I didnt agree with what I understood from Wandering, and I tried to turn this into a meaningful debate.

Azalin, I agree with everything you said here. People are so scared insulting someone that after they something that could be contradicted they end up saying that their opinion doesn’t really matter and their opinion isn’t the only possibility; in the end they come across as wishy-washy and I find it difficult sometimes to take their opinions seriously.

However, I don’t think that Jens comments were aimed at you, it looked to me like he was simply stating what he saw as a problem. Please excuse me, Jens, if I’m putting words into your mouth.

colomon wrote:
But not one of the talented under-35 Class 1 musicians that I know in Michigan primarily plays a Generation. And before you suggest that everyone is just lusting after expensive whistles, Susatos are very popular, and the guy who is perhaps the best player (actually not living in the area at the moment) has been know to play a Sweettone. We have lots of Burkes, handfuls of Water Weasels and O’Riordan’s. One kid plays an Abell.

Well, colomon, your theory that the younger generation(pardon the pun) isn’t as likely to play Generations seems likely to me. There aren’t any Generation players in my area, much less under 35. On the other hand, Feadogs are common, as are Susatos(those are what I play). We have one good whistler(not me!), and mostly he plays a Feadog, though he mentioned at the last session that he is considering ordering an Abell. He likes to refer to the Feadog as “junk”. :smiley:

We also have two O’Riordans and an Abell to represent the high end category of whistles.

Also of note: when I saw Lunasa last March, Crawford and Smyth were playing Susatos on stage.

The real question is, does buying a high end whistle help your playing? If so, then go for it. I’m under the impression that the Generations the pros are using are very good Generations. So, it would make sense for those people that have them to keep playing their very good Generations. And the people that don’t, can keep searching or they can buy a high end whistle.

True Believer
Nate

[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-09-09 13:54 ]

30

Quote:
I’m just saying that my tendencies towards expensive whistles, and the tendencies of the rest of this crazy board, are in no way reflective of the tendencies of the rest of the world. We (myself included) are a relatively small, raggle-taggle band of mostly only half-decent whistle wannabies with big collections of $150 whistles. We do not represent the whistle world. We represent the Chiff and Fipple messageboards.
Best,
Chris

Thanks Chris,
That’s kind what I was trying to say
a few weeks ago and it pissed a lot of
people off. I guess coming from me and
how I said it makes it all a bit
different…but anyway, I share
your sentiment.

Kelhorn Mike

31

Ok. I live in Ireland, & play in quite a few sessions - mostly with younger players. Firstly, there aren’t that many whistle players around - most people’d play whistle as their second or standby instrument. But those that do play whistle tend to play Generations. I know a few people who play Susatos, and low whistles tend to be more expensive anyway, so I’m not counting them. But in sessions, people play Generations. People who play in concerts, however, may have other whistles because of the volume requirements - however you look at it, Generations are not the loudest instruments around! So I think that that might have something to do with the breakdown.
Also, I find that it is quite difficult to switch from instrument to instrument - and Generations, even good Generations (yes, ladies and gentlemen, I do have a few! :slight_smile:) tend to be a little more idiosyncratic than Susatos (my only other reference point - I am not [yet] WhOA afflicted :wink:) - in that getting a good clean tone, especially over octave jumps, takes some getting used to. So that may also be a factor - if you want to stick with mostly Gens, then you kind of have to play them most of the time. Which rules out the NEED to acquire other whistles!
Feel free to disagree - as I say, my knowledge of high-end whistles is somewhat limited! :frowning:
Deirdre

32

On 2002-09-09 11:52, energy wrote:

Maybe so, BrassBlower, but I think when Azalin and Chris refer to trad Irish they are referencing the playing style, not the material being played.

Also, I disagree with your second premise. Simply because a tune is well known and widely published does not make it traditional. Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that many people do not consider O’Carolan traditional. It is well known that he had heavy Baroque influence and he actively tried to work that style of music into the Irish harp tradition, so there is weight behind the argument that his music is not pure Irish.

I know that, but every time there is a discussion about what’s Trad and what isn’t, a fair amount of Turlough-bashing usually ensues. I’m just trying to give the poor guy a break! :smiley:

33

Interesting thread!
…and there was me thinking that it was mainly a matter of mathematics and economics!!

If I have £100 to spend, and I buy a Generation, I have £96 for Guinness and grub.

If I buy a high-end whistle, …well, I might not even have the price of a pint or a lottery ticket or anything.

Boyd :laughing:

http://www.strathspeyinmay.com

34

And here what I’ve been wondering is what happens to the leftover Generations. I mean, when the good players come through and pick out the ten Generations that work out of the fifty at the store, what happens to the leftover forty that are crap? Are they sold to people who have no idea what they’re doing? Used to make elaborate works of modern art? Shipped to America to befuddle us poor Yanks?

35

They’re collected and glued to the Whistle Wagon fipples forward, which then makes a horrific screech as it goes down the highway. Conceptual art, free from the Weekender. You drive it by recorder players houses at nite and get interviewed on the local news. A babe magnet…

[sigh, if only they recognized my genius. Ahead of my time, yet again].

36

On 2002-09-09 19:03, boyd wrote:
Interesting thread!
…and there was me thinking that it was mainly a matter of mathematics and economics!!

If I have £100 to spend, and I buy a Generation, I have £96 for Guinness and grub.

If I buy a high-end whistle, …well, I might not even have the price of a pint or a lottery ticket or anything.

Boyd > :laughing:

http://www.strathspeyinmay.com

Well, let me put it another way…

If I have £100 to spend, and I buy a Generation, I have £96 for Guinness and grub. And, I have at least a 4 in 5 chance of having an absolute crap whistle.

If I have £100 to spend, and I buy a Dixon, I have £85 for Guinness and grub. And, I’ve got a whistle that is either excellent, or in a rare few cases will be adjusted by the maker until it is excellent.

I constantly hear stories of folks going through large numbers of Generation whistles until they find one that’s good. Given that the shops around here wouldn’t let me try that many out, even if they had that many, that seems to me to be a very expensive way to get an adequate whistle. The only reason I own a Generation at all is that I had a need for a C whistle, and that’s all I could get locally in a hurry. (It’s pure crap, and I’m sorry I spent money on it.) Even for those who can try a handful out until they find a good one, the bad ones still get sold. Most likely, they end up in the hands of unknowing beginners, who blame the horrible noise on themselves, and thereby give up on it.

37

I will agree that Generations are not the best whistle for beginners, but when a Generation is good, it’s very good.

The last three Gens I bought all turned out great, all slightly different but all very playable and with lovely tones–maybe I just got really really lucky, or maybe their infamous quality control issues are improving.

I do think you have to approach a Generation whistle a bit differently from other whistles. You can have faith that whistles like Dixons, Susatos, Waltons, etc are going to play pretty well the first time you pick them up.

With a Generation, you have to look harder to find its “sweet spot,” and you have to “play it in” in much the same way you’d break in a wooden instrument.

On any new whistle, but especially Gens, I like to spend the first day I have it just playing long tones, slow simple tunes, finding out where the octave breaks on each note, how much air it’ll take without breaking on each note, etc.

I’ll play for about an hour (usually while watching TV, which drives my lovely wife a wee bit nuts), then take the fipple off and examine it, if there is loose plastic visible remove it, not really tweaking yet at this point, just kind of an inspection and clean up.

I go through this process for several days, and at the end of that time I and the Generation have “made friends” and it is a responsive whistle.

Of course, the whistle itself changes not much at all…it is really me that finds the exact “sweet spot” for every note on the whistle and imprints it in my little monomaniacal brain.

It’s more trouble, but it’s a great way to have a new whistle be more than just another stick in the chiffle pile.

Best to all,

–James
http://www.flutesite.com

38

And to think, all this time I’ve been foolishly buying whistles that I can almost instantly make beautiful music on…

39

I was trying to explain this thread to a non-whistle buddy of mine the other day. He’s more of a car guy, and I think he put things in perspective for me rather succinctly when he dismissed it with “sounds like a Ford vs Chevy argument”.

Ya see, there’s always going to be some percentage of folks who think that the Ford Mustang is the ultimate in cars, and can’t be swayed in any way. They’ll utilize any opportunity to pontificate on the virtues of the vehicle. And of course, that’ll set off some Chevy Camaro lover, and the war begins.

Likewise, I knew some guy in high school who was a big Megadeth fan…if it wasn’t Megadeth it wasn’t “real heavy metal!”.

Every brand of whistle, every style of music is going to have their fanatics (“marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion”–not meant in a derogatory fashion). The fans have a point…there are often good reasons that they like those things with such fervor. I think the trick is to hear their point, but also to understand that it’s not the only valid point out there.

To bring this back to the original point and question: The Barra McNiels evidently make great music using a Generation. But that isn’t to say other bands don’t use other whistles to likewise make great music. Find the whistle and the style that has the sound you want, and go for it.

40

–quote–
And to think, all this time I’ve been foolishly buying whistles that I can almost instantly make beautiful music on…
–endquote–

There’s nothing foolish about that! That’s a good thing! :slight_smile:

I have found that I have better luck with an instrument (any instrument, be it whistle, flute, silver flute, whatever) if I take that “playing in” approach.

It works well for me; your mileage may vary. I wasn’t trying to sound like I thought it was the only right way.

Best wishes,

–James
http://www.flutesite.com