Barra MacNeils play generations!!??

Whistle
1

I come fresh to you after seeing the Barra MacNeils in concert last night, and must say I am still in a bit of shock. When their whistle/flute player pulled out his Generation whistles to play! Generations (and a Susato)? But these guys are professional! So if the professional bands use Generations and the like, why do us unprofessional whistlers(speaking soley for myself here)feel the need to spend huge amounts of money on ‘big name’ whistles? It was a real eye opener I can tell ya! Your thoughts on this???

Cheryl

By the way, if you ever get the chance to see these guys play, it would be well worth your while - they are fantastic!!

<>< praise Him from Whom all blessings flow ><>

[ This Message was edited by: one-tin-soldier on 2002-09-08 15:23 ]

[ This Message was edited by: one-tin-soldier on 2002-09-08 15:24 ]

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Perhaps because every Generation we ever tried was a miserable piece of junk? :slight_smile:

Seriously, though, anyone who has the idea people are spending “huge” amounts on a whistle needs a reality check. I don’t think you can find another instrument out there where you can get a high quality instrument for under $100 without some sort of extraordinary luck.

For instance, I just scanned Elderly Instruments new violin page, and they don’t have any wooden violins under $1000, and even the super-cheap plastic model costs $135. Looks like even a cheap used wooden fiddle will set you back at least $300.

For that price, you could buy the set of Eb, D, and C Water Weasel bodies (with one head), throw in A and G Water Weasels, and still have change left over.

Or for even more perspective – that $300 will just barely buy you a bassoon bocal. (That’s the little metal piece that connects the bassoon to the reed.) For the price of a good student model bassoon, I’m pretty sure you could buy a wooden Thin Weasel in every single key Glenn makes.

I guess what I’m trying to say is just because someone out there manages to make good music with a $5 instrument does not mean those of us who have spent $80 on an instrument are insane. (Not least because in my experience, you could easily blow $100 buying $5 whistles before you found one that worked well…)

[ This Message was edited by: colomon on 2002-09-08 16:29 ]

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You are totally right colomon. Other instruments are a lot cheaper than the most expensive of whistles - but - do the people that play those other instruments feel the need to have 35-40 of them?

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If they were cheap as whistles, they might, though I think your “35-40” is a bit of an exaggeration. In the “how many whistles do you own” thread, the average was much much less than that.

Should we likewise compare the Barra MacNeils with such pros as Joanie Madden (O’Riordan’s), Mary Bergin (Sindts), Grey Larsen (Copelands and Abells), Timmy Britton of Chulrua (Copelands), Larry Nugent (Copeland), etc.

Take a peek at this thread:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?topic=4804&forum=1
Generations aren’t the only whistles being played by pros out there. In fact, I get the distinct impression that more and more pros are switching to high-end whistles.

On 2002-09-08 21:26, one-tin-soldier wrote:
You are totally right colomon. Other instruments are a lot cheaper than the most expensive of whistles - but - do the people that play those other instruments feel the need to have 35-40 of them?

[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-09-09 00:17 ]

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It kills me everytime I see names like Joanie Madden, Larry Nugent, etc, who don’t really play “pure” traditionnal music being the reference to what types of whistles do the pros play. Most people on this board will use Joanie Madden as their reference, but some people like me are quite more impressed with many other players who sometimes don’t even have a CD, and are, from my perspective, much more impressive players. Also, there is more than just sound quality in the “known players”’ criterias of selection, sometimes it just doesnt have anything to do with the sound itself.

6

On 2002-09-08 21:26, one-tin-soldier wrote:
You are totally right colomon. Other instruments are a lot cheaper than the most expensive of whistles - but - do the people that play those other instruments feel the need to have 35-40 of them?

Um, do you mean other instruments are a lot more expensive than the most expensive of whistles?

7

On 2002-09-09 00:48, Azalin wrote:
It kills me everytime I see names like Joanie Madden, Larry Nugent, etc, who don’t really play “pure” traditionnal music being the reference to what types of whistles do the pros play. Most people on this board will use Joanie Madden as their reference, but some people like me are quite more impressed with many other players who sometimes don’t even have a CD, and are, from my perspective, much more impressive players. Also, there is more than just sound quality in the “known players”’ criterias of selection, sometimes it just doesnt have anything to do with the sound itself.

How do you define ‘pure’ traditional music?

True Believer
Nate

[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-09-09 01:07 ]

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So then, does one has to fit your definition of “pure drop” before they can be a good musician or make good music then, Az?

On 2002-09-09 00:48, Azalin wrote:
It kills me everytime I see names like Joanie Madden, Larry Nugent, etc, who don’t really play “pure” traditionnal music being the reference to what types of whistles do the pros play.

9

I did not ask this question to get peoples ‘knickers in a knot’, I was mostly curious as I have many (35 or so) whistles and several of them are what I consider expensive. I was mainly questioning my own judgement on spending so much money I guess.

It looks to me like ‘most’ traditional players prefer generations keeping with the theme that ‘penny’ whisltes were just that, cheap - therefore keeping more with the tradition of the music. Where others are more adventurous and willing experiment with what else is out there in the whislte world.

I know when they are recording they can do all kinds of things to the sound of the whisltes to improve on them, but what about playing live? Is it possible that the ones playing generations have done something with the sound coming from the mic to improve on it? Also I wonder if they play them as is, right from the store or are they tweeked in some way. I have tried tweeking mine according to the C&F guidelines, but did not find the sound much different.

Cheryl

Thanks for sharing in my contemplations!

10

I agree completely with Az.
Unfortunately, asking for the definition of pure trad is like asking for the definition of the blues. If you don’t understand it then asking isn’t going to help.
Chris

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-09-09 09:04 ]

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Wandering,

What I meant is that the “pros” you’ve listed are only a very small part of the hundreds of pros out there, all of them at least as good as many of the people you’ve named. They’re all very good musicians, but I’m personnaly more impressed with some “unknown” players, and what whistle they play will have much more influence on me. I just wanted to point out that the whistle world is much more bigger than what some people think, and doesnt stop with Bergin, Madden, etc. What actually triggered my post is when you said “Should we likewise compare the Barra MacNeils with such pros as Joanie Madden (O’Riordan’s), Mary Bergin (Sindts)”… I personally don’t like this sentence, because for me these other hundreds of players are in the SAME ball park as your “pros” when it comes to trad. music and the way I’d like to play. I just wanted to give my point of view, I’m not saying this is the truth of life…

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Obviously, a player is only “traditional” as long as he hasn’t released any CDs, and does all his playing in his own kitchen. Once he stupidly ventures out of the hosue or records a tune, the damage is done and he gets a “I play Celtic music, just like Michael Flatley” stamp on his forehead.

:wink:

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Oh, yeah, thanks Chris, about the definition of trad. music, I really don’t know, but after spending lotsa of time listening to music in sessions in Ireland, I just know that I want to play in a certain way, which I would define as pure traditionnal… But if for others irish music is Joanie Madden and Dave Spillane, well then I don’t see any problem to it!

14

Jens,

You can try to talk for others if you want, but what you said doesnt apply to me. Christy Barry has a CD and I still think he plays pure tradionnal, and I could name you many others. But anyway, I knew it was going to come to that, like everytime someone says something seen as “bad” about Madden and others… My goal was just trying to inform people who dont know much about irish music that no, Madden does not represent irish music in my view… Sorry if it offended people.

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I might also add that the list of musicians Wandering Whistler provides is based almost completely in the US, with the exception of Mary Bergin, who spends a lot of time here anyways. There are literally thousands of other brilliant whistle players in Ireland and the rest of the world (Boston included) who play Generations almost exclusively.
Also, the largest trend I’ve seen in whistle demographics has been a shift by the top notch players from just using Generations to playing John Sindt’s whistles as well, which are the closest thing to finding a perfect Generation without actually finding one. Basically top notch whistle players are just buying really good Generations in the form of John’s whistles.

Kevin Crawford, who plays mostly flute and low whistles (Grinter, Overton, Chieftan) on his CDs discussed whistles with a bunch of us during a class - in attendance were almost all of the top-cost brands. Kevin reached over the person sitting next to him and took his Sindt D, played it brilliantly with a big smile, gave it back and said “Now these are the best whistles in the world”.

I think people are missing Az’s main point, that being that while Joannie Madden, Laurence Nugent, etc are superb players, a trip to the Fleadh or Willy Week, or even a couple weeks hanging out in the pubs of Galway, Ennis or Boston will reveal plenty of players who are just as good and play good old $4 Generation D whistles.
The group of American players WanderingWhistler mentions gained such recognition in the US partly because of their talent but also because they are among the very few whistle players who are distributed in the US. Idolizing them as the primary whistle Gods is ignoring the vast majority of whistle players in Ireland and elsewhere who play brilliant music but haven’t been recorded or just haven’t been distributed in the US.

Now I love most of the expensive whistles - I have several blow-your-mind good low pitched Overtons and a complete set of sweet as can be Sindts, so don’t think that I don’t love the more expensive whistles - I’m just saying that my tendencies towards expensive whistles, and the tendencies of the rest of this crazy board, are in no way reflective of the tendencies of the rest of the world. We (myself included) are a relatively small, raggle-taggle band of mostly only half-decent whistle wannabies with big collections of $150 whistles. We do not represent the whistle world. We represent the Chiff and Fipple messageboards.
Best,
Chris

The more you give the more there is.

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-09-09 09:32 ]

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On 2002-09-09 09:03, Azalin wrote:
Wandering,

What I meant is that the “pros” you’ve listed are only a very small part of the hundreds of pros out there, all of them at least as good as many of the people you’ve named…Should we likewise compare the Barra MacNeils with such pros as Joanie Madden (O’Riordan’s), Mary Bergin (Sindts)"… I personally don’t like this sentence, because for me these other hundreds of players are in the SAME ball park as your “pros” when it comes to trad.

I wholeheartedly agree, though the point of my post wasn’t to compare ‘playing quality’, since I’ve never heard the the Barra MacNeils and have no idea how I’d rate their playing. I wasn’t trying to hold up the folks I mentioned in a “these guys are whistle gods, and just who the heck are those Barra MacNiels folks anwyay?” way. I see the point of my post was much like yours…there are lots of folks out there who play good music on the whistle. Not all of them play generations. Many of them (even some of the more pure-drop types like Bergin) do not.

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Azalin,

Actually (believe it or not based on my previous post), I understand and sympathise with your point of view. I tend to occupy the “middle ground” so to speak, ie. while I like many of the recordings of the aforementioned famous whistlers, I like the less-polished stuff your hear elsewhere just as much.

However, what sort of annoys me - whether it comes from the “Madden-lovers” or the “kitchen players” - is the insistance that their and only their point of view is the right one. Whether it is a poster insisting that Joanie Madden’s extra-echo-effects version of the Titanic theme is just the most haunting thing since the Hound of the Baskervilles, or someone who insists that you’re only traditional if you are old, toothless and lives in a shed on the west coast of Ireland, it just strikes me as too one-sided.

Sometimes it seems that a player is disqualified from being traditional, just by merit of being well-known. Doesn’t make sense to me…

:wink:

[ This Message was edited by: Jens_Hoppe on 2002-09-09 09:41 ]

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I’d like to apologize to Energy for a thoroughly unhelpful reply to what may have been an honest question. Energy, I just get frustrated because it seems like every time Az, Peter Laban, Stevie J, Loren or I points out that Joannie Madden, Davy Spillane (etc.) play mostly non-traditional music (they CAN play brilliant trad) we are pounced on by a bunch of the Joannie/Spillane desciples. It just gets frustrating and makes no sense if this board is supposed to be truly educational.
Best,
Chris

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On 2002-09-09 09:25, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
I might also add that the list of musicians Wandering Whistler provides is based almost completely in the US, with the exception of Mary Bergin, who spends a lot of time here anyways.

Ah, we must have infected her. :wink:
Seriously, I merely cut and pasted a few of the first names from the “What do the pros play” thread. I didn’t choose them in any particular order, or for any particular reasons other than 1) they were ‘pros’ and 2) they didn’t play generations.

Since I thought the thread was about “why buy anything other than a generation if these pros play them” I thought I’d point out that not all of them do.

There are literally thousands of other brilliant whistle players in Ireland and the rest of the world (Boston included) who play Generations almost exclusively.

I’ve seen quite a number of brilliant whistle players that don’t play generations, as well. Judging by the fact that my Sweetheart whistle alone was marked #1576, I’d have to guess that number’s probably in the thousands across the world as well. It doesn’t surprise me that many folks play Generations, though…they’re cheap, and can be found in almost any music store. This isn’t really true of any other brand of whistle.

Also, the largest trend I’ve seen in whistle demographics has been a shift by the top notch players from just using Generations to playing John Sindt’s whistles as well, which are the closest thing to finding a perfect Generation without actually finding one.
Basically top notch whistle players are just buying really good Generations in the form of John’s whistles.

This is just silly. No matter how you paint it, a Sindt’s a high-end whistle. The arguments for buying one (“to get the sound I want without having to hunt around or tweak”) are the same arguments for buying any high end whistle. And, as you mention, it seems to me that there’s a bit of a trend toward the high-end whistle. It seems a bit disingenious to try to place the Sindt in the same category as a Generation. I got my last batch of Generations for $3.20 apiece. A Sindt is what, $80.00? (And, to make things clear, I’m not anti-Generation. I play a Generation F and a Generation C in my band.)

I think people are missing Az’s main point…

Not really. I just think Az missed mine. The discussion started with a question along the lines of “This band played great on a generation, how are high-end whistles justified?”. My counter point was “Other great bands don’t play generations”.

Perhaps my point was too subtle. I wasn’t trying to idolize Madden, et al. You’re right in that we shouldn’t idolize them to the point of ignoring other great players. Nor should folks idolize Generations to the point of ignoring other great whistles.

Greg

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Dude, Sweethearts? Sweethearts? I have NEVER seen a Sweetheart played by anyone (except for myself in a store), in Ireland, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Portland or anywhere else. I seriously do not think that many, if any, people who bought the thousand Sweethearts before you are serious players.

As for the Sindt/Generation question… I think you have a pretty good point. However, I maintain that people are paying a premium for the guarantee that their whistles will sound like really good Generations, rather than hunt through a bunch of Gens to find a good one. I think most of the people who play Generations as their primary whistles have hunted around a bit to find a really good one - they’re not just picking up the first in the batch and saying “Okay, that one is good enough”. Az and I sat and played through about 50 Generations at Custys in Ennis before we walked away with about 10 that we liked. So yeah, you and everyone else are right, there are a lot of crummy Generations, but the good ones are superb and most really experienced traditional whistle players would prefer a top-notch Generation over a more expensive type of whistle. Buying a Sindt is sort of like buying a Generation with a guarantee. You know it’s going to sound like a top-notch Gen. The fipple isn’t going to break and you’re probably not going to misplace it as easily (since Gens are so common), but you still know that it is going to sound and play like a really, really good Generation whistle.
Best,
Chris