Advice please for Newbie but crumblie

World/Folk Flutes & Winds
1

Hi
I have joined this forum in the hope that some of you can advise me - so sorry if this is a bit long:

I have recently picked up the recorder (had a slight dabble as a child, many years ago - also have a Mandolin which catches more dust than it plays notes, as I got in the habit of putting it in a safe place where no-one will break it & then forget it for a while).

I got into the recorder again after we took up medieval re-enactment & heard grown ups still using recorders (other than annoying children playing 3 Blind mice all day).
I then saw a whole range of other interesting instruments - shawms, bombardes, crumhorns, chanters, etc - & I was tempted to buy a chanter to learn on, but all I get out of it are a series of wet raspberries.

So heres the question:
The problem is that now I am an old crumblie, after working in a very unhealthy place once I developed pulmonary fibrosis - so I get very short of puff.
I wondered if this was why I am not getting much success with the chanter, or if it is just a matter of time & practice? Or perhaps would any of the other types of instrument be easier to play - have I just picked the hardest one?
I did try asking a lady in a music shop, but her answer was just “stick to strings” - not really helpful.

So, can anyone advise - would a shawm or bombarde be as hard to blow as the chanter, or do I resign myself to the recorder being the only one I can manage?

2

I find it odd that you made no mention of bag pipes.

Bit of an expensive way around not having lung power though.

3

Hi Hilary: Welcome. This isn’t the most popular section of the forum and you are requesting some specialized information but someone will be along to answer your questions. These folks know everything. I don’t play any of the instruments you’re asking about. You wouldn’t want my advice anyway. Where I’m from, I believe that crumblies are known as geezers. Being old rocks!

4

Hi Hilary,
stay away from the bombarde - it needs more blowing pressure than any other instrument. Trained young people with healthy lungs play only every second line…and they’ve turned blue by the end of the tune… Most shawms are a bit easier but not much. Crumhorns can be quite easy to blow, depending on the reed. They are quiet but beautiful. You want to get a good one, a bad crumhorn is a PITA. The louder a reed instrument is, the more pressure (and air) it will need, with the bombarde being at the top end.
Generally, reed instruments don’t need so much air, but they do require a high blowing pressure. Flutes need plenty of air but very little pressure. Since pulmonary fibrosis is a restrictive functional disorder of the lungs, a reed intrument (preferably with an “extra light” reed) might be the way to go, if you do want to play a wind instrument.
I suppose the chanter you mention is a scottish bagpipe practice chanter (4 mm bore, small fingerholes, with a windcap)? This is a practicing device for the Scottish bagpipes, not an instrument in its own right - don’t expect good sound from that, it is designed to train the fingering. You should have it checked by someone who plays Scottish bagpipe to see if the reed is okay, if it is and you can’t blow it, then maybe you should indeed stick to strings.
A bagpipe might be a good idea for you because the pressure required to get the reeds going is exerted by the arm, not by the lungs. You should not go for the Scottish monster, this again needs plenty of air and pressure due to its volume - it is not suited for early music, anyway. A Hümmelchen or a Schäferpfeife (german renaissance bagpipes) are much better both for the music you want to play and for your lung power. Models with only one drone are available (and are, of course, cheaper). A spanish gaita bagpipe with light reeds might also be what you’re looking for. Read the FAQs in the “non-uilleann piping” section of this forum and stay away from cheapo pakistani bagpipes.
Whatever your decision will be, you will need a teacher to show you good blowing technique from the very start. Correct fingering is also desirable, bagpipes are very different from recorders, even though some bagpipes (basically) employ recorder fingering.

5

Sorry, I just noticed - there are no FAQs in the non-uilleann-piping section…
Just ask here if you have any questions.
In case you can read German, this will be helpful:
http://faq.sackpfeifen.info/

6

Thanks Michael for the advice - that was very useful.
I had been tempted by the Bombarde but will give it a miss then.

The crumhorns are also tempting, but are a lot more expensive - I dont think I can justify spending that much just to find I can’t play it, but if thinks get a bit better in time I might chance it. I suppose the smaller ones will be easier than the larger ones.
On the extra light reeds - are they standard to any reed instrument, or do you only get them for cetain types? Perhaps I could get one for the chanter to try it - do you know where you get them from?
I’ll try having a look at the website you mentioned, but my German is not that good (I can read Dutch, so maybe I can pick out some of it), but I think if I got a set of bagpipes, my family will lynch me. :slight_smile:

I think for the time being I will stick to the recorder, but I may try getting it a bigger friend - perhaps a treble.
I dont think the lung capacity will really increase much, but there’s a chance that the recorder might help a bit in time.

7

If your heart is not set on a reeded instrument, why not consider the whistle? The air requirement is basically the same as recorder, so no worries there. And it’s a popular re-enactment instrument. After all, duct flutes / pipes / flageolets were common in medieval use. They are challenging to play properly, readily available, no worries over reeds, lots of learning materials and assistance to be had, they come in all sizes. And your family won’t kill you over the expense. Just a thought.

8

First about the crumhorn. Modern recreations (but not reproductions; running on plastic reeds are indeed soft. The real stuff, though is a different matter altogether. They used to play in mixed shawm/crumhorn consorts, you know. I happen to have a Moeck soprano crumhorn, made about 20 years ago, with a real reed, not plastic, based on one of the few original surviving ones, and believe me, it’s anything but soft. My lungs are still hanging out at the other end of the bore…
But here is a really cool suggestion. Why not try a set of bagpipes with bellows? Contrary to normal wisdom, nearly all types can be played with bellows, you know. I’d hate to have a go at a set of GHB with bellows, though, but still, even that has been done, to my knowledge. In some bagpiping traditions this is actually optional. I know this for a fact about the Hungarian pipes. And being a maker, I can in all honesty say that up to date I have made three sets of pipes with both blowpipe/and bellows connection. To be played as preferred on different occasions.

9

Haven’t thought about the bellows at all - shame on me! (being an uilleann piper in the first place…)
Yuri is perfectly right. The French musette de cour is bellows-blown and a real renaissance instrument. It is a very quiet bagpipe, definitely not louder than a recorder. Central French/Flemish bagpipes exist with or without bellows and are very versatile, musically, the volume being comparable to that of the violin. Nearly all types of smallpipes can be played with or without, except for NSP and the above mentioned musette which are always bellows-blown. Many East European bagpipes (Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Croatian etc) exist in both forms but are probably not well suited for the music you want to play. The czech instrument maker Pavel Cíp (http://www.histnastroje.gajdy.cz/) offers three types of historical bagpipes, all bellows-blown.

10

I had a look at those bagpipes on the Czech site - they were fabulous!
They were however also very expensive, so only something to think of for the future, as I am only playing for a bit of fun, nothing that serious. Also, although the bellows is a good idea for someone without much “puff”, I don’t want to completely admit defeat yet. The exercise of trying to play the recorder is at least keeping some lung capacity going.
I was tempted tho..that one with the carved head was really special.

I have treated myself to a treble recorder for now - got a cheap Mollenhauer. I do like the woody sound of the recorders, but was tempted by the reedy sounds of the other instruments - hence the original question. I have also noticed the wooden “tin whistles” too, although they probably are almost the same as a recorder in sound.
Thanks for the suggestions, some interesting sites to look at.

11

Oh dear. :astonished:

12

Ok, so I said “Newbie”. I admit my ignorance here.
What’s the “oh dear” then?
A bit more explanation would be helpful.
I have presumably said something risible in my ignorance - but if you don’t ask, you don’t find out.

13

There is a long time running animosity between whistlers and recorder players. (It’s mostly in good fun)

Bottom line a wooden whistle should sound like a whistle.

Note: I’m a flooter…I don’t really understand :smiley:


'course there would be the folk/parlor issue…

14

Don’t feel bad. It’s a difference in the character of the sound. Simple explanation. A recorder usually has a sweet character that is associated with a different type of music than Irish and Celtic/Folk music. A whistle should have a little bite, or complexity to it. It’s like the difference between Barbara Streisand and Janis Joplin (over simplified).

Whistle players don’t want their whistle to sound like a recorder, and recorder players don’t want their recorder to sound like a whistle. So we tease each other - like a PC and Mac users tease each other.

A wood whistle will likely have a warmer, more organic character than a metal or PVC whistle. But if it sounded like a recorder, nobody would buy it. You’d want it to have a bit of the edgy airy bite called “chiff.” You’d want some complexity in the voice as well. This is a general explanation. Then again, there are some people who like a whistle with pure tones.

Now, to address your puff challenge. I think you’ll want to be looking at something like:

Freeman Tweaked Generation. Tell Jerry your preference for a light blower.

Also, if I recall correctly, a narrow bore Burke is a pretty light blower, with a pure tone, and a very nice whistle.

The O’Brien narrow bore brass whistle is a light blower, and has a nice chiffy whistle sound to it.

Reyburn whistles has a narrow bore D as well, I haven’t played it, but his session bore D’s are very nice, and have good volume to air input. And Ronaldo will custom voice it to your preference.

Both Reyburn and Burke have a 30 day guarantee, so you can give it a go, and if it doesn’t work out you can return it to them for a refund. The other’s may have the same or similar refund policy as well.

Have fun,

15

Yep, what Daniel said. Plus there’s an entire forum here, and the attached website, devoted to nothing but whistles. It’s the original raison d’être of this board, and there is plenty of information to be had.

Whistle Forum: http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewforum.php?f=1
C&F Website: http://www.chiffandfipple.com/

A bit more explanation of your musical goals would be helpful.

If you have your heart set on a high-backpressure capped reed or double reed instrument, but suffer from the pulmonary limitations you describe, that’s just not realistic. This is what your music shop lady was implying. Experienced wind players with well-developed lung capacity have trouble playing these instruments, as others have described above.

If you’re willing to invest the expense and time to acquire the specialized knowledge of reedmaking, maintenance, and regional types and styles, then one of the many kinds of bellows-blown bagpipes may be right for you. These pipes are generally played seated, which may be a limitation for peripatetic reenactment use.

If you’re interested more in appearances and a modicum of authenticity for medieval reenactment … and/or if you’re simply interested in reviving your interest in wind playing … then you may as well stick to recorder. Mollenhauer make nice instruments, and I’m sure yours are fine. But they are probably patterned after baroque instruments. For greater authenticity, you could look into a Ganassi recorder or a Mollenhauer Dream Flute, which is an affordable baroque-renaissance hybrid.

If your school experience with recorder (a UK phenomenon, I think) leads you to think of it as a child’s instrument, then you might re-read my above post about whistles. Five quid buys you the same instrument that the best Irish players in the world use, or you can spend hundreds on something fancier. And you get an instrument which in many respects of tone, technique, fingering, and repertoire is quite different from recorder, and which may also give you more bang for your (limited) breath.

16

Re-reading this, I don’t mean to sound harsh. As a serious recorder player for 40 years, and a whistler for 20, I’m just acutely aware of the similarities and differences between the two.

It seems to me that the music is at least as important as the instrument. That is, when you take up instrument X, you’re also making a commitment to the music of that instrument and to the culture of that music - whether it be highland piping tunes, or Irish dance tunes, or renaissance consort part music, or French folk music, etc. And within each of those traditions there will be instruments more or less suited to one’s experience, taste, and physical characteristics and limitations.

Of course, I’m sure that many people have taken up instrument X at first simply because they fancy the sound, or the appearance, or just the idea of playing it. And sometimes an instrument can lead you into types of music you wouldn’t otherwise explore - that’s a part of the adventure.

But at some point you need an overall goal, and I don’t get a strong sense of purpose from the OP. Which makes advising an instrument choice hit-or-miss. That’s the frustration that I sense on both sides of the conversation here.

Cheers!

17

Good advice MTGuru. After thinking about all the meandering ideas in this thread, Hilary should just pick a starting point that suits her fancy (and budget) at this time. And give it a go.

Get a feel for the music and culture of the instrument - and see if it sinks in. If not - don’t feel bad - try something new. Heck, in “Irish/Celtic” music alone there are people that start with whistle and go through low whistle, flute, then land in pipes - or stick with whistle or flute perhaps.

Hilary, you could maybe find a local Irish session to sit in on a couple times to get a better feel for what people are using. It’s ok to let your different interests ferment a bit before you make a decision.

Good luck to you,

18

Mt since you admit :laughing: to being a recorder player, let me ask you,Is tongueing used a LOT in recrder?? or is it just in medieval , or what? I am a fan of Kemper Crabb, yes funny name. He may not be very good technically ,but I like the way his recorder sounds, but he uses a ren recorder. Is this a totally different bird? I have a alto rec. but I do not think it sounds good, at all.

19

Simple answer, yes. Complicated answer: Depends on the music, of course. Recorder plays anything from medieval to baroque to modern. But my early music teachers all taught and favored clear articulation - with the caveat that there are many different types of articulation and tonguing: different syllables, legato tonguing, etc.