please, please, please don’t flame me for my stupidity… as i’ve posted before, i am not a keyless flute player. i am a guitar player trying to learn the keyless flute.
as a youngster (about half a century ago) in the school band, we were taught (on clarinet, at least) that articulation of notes was accomplished through varying methods of tonguing. in several posts here, i’ve seen that some are almost rude in their dismissal of this form of articulation.
so… (here is the stupid question… or questions)… is the ornamentation used in Irish traditional music (cuts? crans? did i get that right?) the preferred method of articulation in ITM? (and other forms of music played on modern keyless flute?) If so, does anybody know the history of this approach to playing since the modern keyless flute is just that… modern? why is the “other” form of articulation frowned upon? how does one learn the ornamentation?
thank you in advance for your help.
(if you’re gonna call me stupid or flame me or just be mean, please don’t bother to post a response.)
I can only speak to traditional irish music, but for the most part, you articulate notes on the flute with a combination of breath and finger ornaments. The finger ornaments are largely based upon uileann piping technique - adapted to the flute. These are cuts, taps, rolls, crans, etc. Most irish music, whether it is played on fiddle, box, flute, etc. uses these ornaments to some extent. For the most part, they are rhythmic devices. In terms of breath, generally you are supporting your breath with your diaphragm and articulating notes by closing off the air in your threat. Search for glottal stop on this site and you will get a lot of results and the related debate. If you haven’t already, take a look at Rob Greenway’s site to get a sense on the finger ornaments - http://www.geocities.com/feadanach/
That said, the most important thing you need to do is listen to a lot of irish traditional flute players if that’s the kind of music you want to play. Once you start listening to a lot of players, the type and placement of the articulation will make a lot more sense. Without knowing what you are aiming for, explaining a roll over the internet doesn’t really help you a lot.
While I don’t have a lot of answers for your questions on the history of this, what I can say is that the basic structure of traditional flute playing goes back a long time. If you get a chance to listen to some of the old 78s of recorded Irish music from the 1920s, they are using more or less the same ornamentation as we do today. Granted, there are some major differences in terms of the placement, quantity, type, etc. but in a broad sense, it is all there. If you just listened to John McKenna’s recordings from the 1920s, you could learn a tremendous amount about how to play traditional irish music on the flute.
G’day Jim,
I dont think that there’s any such thing as a stupid question…if one does’nt ask questions,one stays ill informed…ask away !!
Anyway,my two bob’s worth is this…
If a continious stream of air is coming into,and out of,a musical instrument like the Uilleann Pipes for example,and the player wants to ornament the the notes played,he/she HAS to do this with the fingers…cuts,rolls,taps,crans and other mysterious ‘blips’ …I use this school of thought in my Whistle and Flute playing..I don’t 'tongue’any notes …
Having said that…I was fortunate to spend some time with Fluter/Chiffy member Kenny a few weeks ago.He uses the above style,but mainly he ornaments notes by using his breath from the throat..I believe this is called ‘Glotal Stops’,although I’m not real sure on that…This gives his Fluting a wonderfully percussive effect and gives the tunes great strength.
Bloody hard to do though !!..
Thats all mate…all the best with your Fluting…
Jim,
Nothing really to add to the above excellent posts, other than to further say that that wasn’t at all a stupid question. An even if it was, well
It’s a bit worrisome to read a post that contains the plea: “please don’t flame me”. One wonders what other forums you’ve been burned on.
You asked about ornamentation like tongued notes and why it’s frowned on. Whenever I hear someone playing like that in session, it still sounds pleasant and musical, even pretty in that classical music kind of way. Not offensive, but just not as right as it could be for traditional dance music.
This place is where Irish flute playing zealots come to “get it right” so maybe we’re just really keen on the specifics of how to do a proper glottal stop, etc.
There’s nothing wrong with tonguing in Irish music. The general style is legato, but tonguing is one of many ways of articulating notes, and the way it’s used and the frequency of it are at the discretion of the player. Here’s a quote from Brother Steve’s Tin-whistle Pages:
" At one end of the tonguing spectrum, I have a recording of the great uillean piper Seamus Ennis playing a jig on the whistle in which he tongues about twice. At the other end, I have a recording of Donegal whistle wizard Packie Manus Byrne playing a jig in which every note is tongued, bar about two. Both are fine examples of traditional playing, with great lift and rhythm. "
And if you look at The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle by Grey Larsen, described by Matt Molloy as “essential reading for anybody interested in getting it right”, you’ll find a whole chapter devoted to “Tonguing, Multiple tonguing and throating”.
However, it is best not to listen to what people say, but to what they do. Once you get the feel for the music by listening to great players, you will find your own way of playing. I just can’t see any reason to leave a weapon of articulation out of your arsenal!
There is a big difference between talking about the whistle and flute playing. If you notice, all of your examples come from whistle. Traditionally, tonguing is a big part of whistle playing. Flute, not so much.
Jim, as one who plays Boehm flute at least as often as wooden Irish, I can tell you that I use a great deal of Irish articulation on my Boehm flute.
It’s funny that you mention (and accurately) that many Irish players frown on tonguing, but the same is true of classical players about the lack of tonguing. Glottal stops? Heaven forbid!
Just to clarify - I wasn’t saying you should use as much tonguing in flute as in whistle playing, merely that you shouldn’t accept that tonguing in flute-playing is forbidden. It’s one of a large number of ways of articulating the music and it’s nothing to be afraid of…
LOL! My wife was a flute major, and never warmed up to tonguing. After she’d been through a couple of teachers, she learned to just not tell anyone she was using glottals almost exclusively.
Chris Norman once said to me, “If someone says that tonguing has absolutely no place in Irish flute playing, that says more about him than it does about Irish flute playing.” Basically, if you are going to tongue, you need some control over it, both the sound and the placement. There are several different ways to tongue a note, and you want it to be more subtle than in your face. And you don’t want to tongue every note. It’s no substitute for finger articulation, but then the glottal isn’t either.
BrendanB
There is a big difference between talking about the whistle and flute playing. If you notice, > all of your examples come from whistle> .
stante
And if you look at The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle by Grey Larsen, described by Matt Molloy as “essential reading for anybody interested in getting it right”, you’ll find a whole chapter devoted to “Tonguing, Multiple tonguing and throating”.
he-he-he-he-he! OK, nobody likes a wise guy - apologies… I’m gone!
stante
And if you look at The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle by Grey Larsen, described by Matt Molloy as “essential reading for anybody interested in getting it right”, you’ll find a whole chapter devoted to “Tonguing, Multiple tonguing and throating”.
Every time I’ve asked someone for a quote/recommendation for my band/product/whatever, their response has been, “sure! what would you like me to say?”
That’s certainly possible, I just find it hard not to feel cynical about such back-of-book quotes.
edit: Sorry if it came off as harsh, but I would be happier hearing Molloy’s name invoked in conjunction with his own quote about the topic, rather than his quote about a book which contains something on the topic. I didn’t mean to question Molloy’s integrity so much as suggest that such quotes are often more a matter of professional courtesy than anything else.
Somehow this book had escaped my attention until this thread - and I thank stante for bringing it up. After further research, I have ordered a copy. Customer feedback is available here for anyone else who may not have caught this previously:
My playing has been influenced by ITM since the '60s, but I have been comfortable with the convoluted stylings that I use for my music. I do not qualify as an ITM player by current standards - yet am not adverse to improving/expanding my techniques in that direction. One of the reasons I read a great deal more than I post on C&F.
That said, I have had very different reactions from people I have requested commentary from - but then for most of my career I have prefaced the request with ‘please be brutally honest’ in hopes of gleaning constructive criticisms and original responses instead of the usual pap you get from someone wanting to be nice to the entertainer/writer. Forums are often a different story, however.
I’ve gotten a bit off-topic, but I am grateful for the info gleaned!
Thanks again!
My point was just to say that Grey’s book covers both flute and whistle playing. I think it’s taking Matt Molloy’s endorsement out of context when he is talking about the whole book and you are using it to say that tonguing is a traditional part of flute playing. If I remember correctly, most of the tonguing chapter in Grey’s book is in reference to whistle playing.
This debate has raged back and forth, so I don’t mean to belabor it, but my point early on was that the kind of breath articulation that’s used for trad is very different than the tonguing that’s used for classical music. The original question came from someone who was new to this style and I wanted to make it clear that in trad you are going for a very different sound than you are with classical. In Irish music, you want to make sure that you are getting that attack and push from your diaphragm as opposed to just separating a contstant stream of air with your tongue.
That said, I’m not and have never been a classical flute player, so maybe I am mischaracterizing their technique.
I didn’t say Matt Molloy’s quote had anything to do with the tonguing stuff in the book. I merely intended to indicate that Larsen’s book (and by extension, Larsen) had some credibility. I don’t think even professionbal courtesy would get Molloy to endorse something absurd. I now remember why I don’t bother posting on sites like this - ‘religious’ arguments can go on forever. Goodbye, everyone.
The full quote from Matt Molloy on the back of Larsen’s book is “Grey has, through his research, patience and diligence, completed a work on Irish flute and tin whistle that I feel is essential reading for anybody interested in getting it right”. I read that as being a commendation for thoroughness. The shorter quote above misses the substance of what Molloy is saying about the book. If the great man’s name gives credibility let us know what he says.
he-he-he-he-he! OK, nobody likes a wise guy - apologies… I’m gone!