“Whistle playing on the flute”

Irish Flute
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That descriptor came from Catherine McEvoy in the Patsy Hanly episode of Se Mo Laoch, I believe talking about the style that I think is safe to say is the most prominent today: long, fairly smooth phrases (not a lot of huff and puff) packed to the brim with fast finger ornamentation. There are, of course, many variations on that theme, but it feels like a significant number of players, especially celebrated ones under the age of 60 or so, could be described that way. It popped out to me when she said it, and I’ve heated her say similar things before so I know this is a bugbear of hers. Personally, I often find myself tuning out players whose playing feel like one long string of rolls and crans.

I’m bringing this up firstly because I thought it was an interesting phrase, and one that resonated somewhat with me. Don’t know if others feel the same way.

But also, I’m somewhat curious as to how it came to dominate flute playing. Part of it I’m sure comes from everyone trying to be Matt Molloy, who I definitely wouldn’t count as a “whistle player on the flute” but whose style is certainly highly ornamented and very, very popular. I’d imagine Comhaltas teachers and Fleadh judges probably factor in as well, as they always do. Has anyone more academically-minded looked at the more recent evolution of Irish flute playing styles in article or book form?

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Just listening to a Catherine McEvoy concert on my phone while writing this and her style is just as ornamented as anyone else’s. I guess she was more about the “huff and puff” you mentioned as she has a very nicely accentuated style - a bit similar to Harry Bradley for example.
Molloy certainly has a more fluent style. He doesn’t use the breath so much as a means to accentuate the rhythm.
I am no expert but I’d say both are legitimate authentic styles of playing.
I think who comes closest to the description of “whistle playing on flute” is Brian Finnegan. He’s a genius though so he can do as he pleases.
I do remember one thing from an interview with him in which he said he uses tongueing because Molloy used it on the flute. But I read elsewhere that Molloy only uses glottal stops - not sure if he himself said it though.
So - if I should describe “whistle playing on flute”, I’d say tongueing and lots of cranns. But cranns themselves were adopted from the pipes and didn’t originate on the whistle, so…
I’ll be interested in hearing the opinion of people more familiar with the tradition… Mr Gumby for instance.

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I personally prefer players like Chris Norman who have a classical background and play a variety of genres. I find he uses the full gamut of articulation from Irish and piping style finger articulation and ornaments to huffing and glottal stop and full on tonguing.

Grey Larsen gives a bit of a potted history of the style in his big tome but basically boils it down to smooth finger articulation comes from piping and is ‘the’ traditional way to play and implicit in the music. I think the reality is probably more complex. We can maybe infer that from the fact that piping has been around a long time, but on the other hand many staple tunes of ITM and probably also stylistic tendencies are more modern than most know or let on. Probably a lot has developed since the 1950s/60s. Fact is we don’t know ‘exactly’ how people played trad in the 1800s or before, but we do know at least some about the evolution of classical playing style thru the 1700s and 1800s from treatises and that at the time there wasn’t as great a distinction between traditional, country dance, ‘classical’ etc. Based on what we DO know about classical and popular music I suspect earlier flute players may have tongued more than the modern ITM style. But it’s just an educated guess.

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Yes, I should clarify that there are plenty of heavily finger-ornamented styles that are still quite “breathy.” It’s more that for some players the fingers are doing most if not all of the work, perhaps as you say with some fancy tonguing. The breath is fairly constant and phrases tend to be long and flowing.

I’m certainly not here to gatekeeper authenticity, and even though McEvoy did say something to the effect of “Patsy Hanly is real flute playing,” in fairness the whole point of the program was to compliment him, so some hyperbole is to be expected. Molloy was the first name out of her mouth as one of the top-most echelon of flute players, so it’s certainly no knock on him!

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This is a very interesting topic. My own opinion would be to say that it’s less “whistle players” playing the flute, but more “[uilleann] pipers” playing the flute. 20 years ago past November we held a flute weekend in Aberdeen. Niall Keegan was one of the tutors and I remember him saying that flute players in Ireland could be divided into 2 camps. Those whose music came from the mouthpiece end of the flute and those whose music came from the fingerhole sections of the flute - the latter would be those whom Catherine McEvoy would have been referring to. It’s a fairly fundamentalist distinction, in that most players would have elements of both in their playing, but there are definitely local styles and individual players who make use of deliberate breath pulsing to emphasise rhythm more than others. At the end of the day, there is no right or wrong in this, it is down to personal choice as to whose music you may prefer over others, and what particular style you choose to play yourself as a flute player.
For myself - coming from Aberdeen in Scotland - the greatest compliment I think ever had was at a session in Mullagh at a Willie Clancy Week when a fiddle player from the North of Ireland - not knowing my origins - told me I had "a great Northern style “. Made my week, that did.
To sedi - I may have said this before somewhere else here, but Matt Molloy was at the Willie Clancy week in 1982 and was invited to play and answer questions from the assembled flute classes. He was specifically asked what he did with his tongue when playing, and replied " I keep it out of the way”. That is a verbatim quote - I don’t have it on tape, but that is what he said, I was there.

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@kenny
Ah, I think you might well have been my source about Molloy not using tonguing. :thumbsup:

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Intermission:

https://youtu.be/5TMfIb0GqR8

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“Whistle Player On The Flute” :
https://youtu.be/zRljXb_6Ru0

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That is a very interesting conversation bigsciota.

I learned to play on a small embouchure renaissance style flute, and though music (more classical) is definitely not whistle like on it, when playing faster traditional music at speed it definitely wants to come out more “notes than expression”. I don’t mind that at all personally, especially if it is fluid or graceful as well, some of Paddy Carty’s playing comes to mind in that respect ?

Any tune just for the sake of it is not going to lift me though, and that seems to count especially for “whistling on the flute”… because I am much happier listening to the the actual sound the player is expressing if the rest is “just repetition”, if that sound has some natural feeling to the voice. Most flutes are capable of this expression if the player chooses to accept it, even the renaissance flute. Some are much better though… the Rudall Rose flute seems to be very vocal, which Catherine McEvoy plays for example. I know it can be played more directly, but its voice is there if accepted. So if you listen to her or say Josie McDermott properly , you will hear the flute literally lilting along the song (I know the word tune is supposed to be used) . Chris Norman also I think.

Player embouchure is very important, I think pursed lipped playing favours rhythm over expression. Matt Molloy is capable of all the styles I should imagine, I find his playing clean with a lot of expression but definitely not whistling. The tongue does not much help the shaping of a deep tone , and use of interrupts the melody. His playing is beyond further comment (or praise even) by me, because it is very complete. When I listen to his playing it is like he is saying “don’t listen to me, listen to the music” :slight_smile:

For gentler tunes the renaissance style flute actually can be played close to his way of playing.


Funnily, I did try to copy the first of

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5FSK4bmYspw


onto flute just as she plays it on whistle. In the end after a lot of effort, I decided it is not possible to get that brightness and liveliness on flute. So you can’t whistle on the flute even, only sort of try to :slight_smile:

Really important I think is setting. If you are playing in a band for example the flute is played a certain way. If it is lead or solo, another way. If it is noisy street corner another way. If it is alone or in quiet company, yet another way is possible.

Own surrounding will also influence. Students will tend to emulate “the whole show”, so at home when quiet they might still be practicing to play on stage a certain way. So it isn’t just the music, but all that might go along with it.. friends, making impression or fitting in…even just what a player feels represents their own character at any point in time. That is fine also. I have played mostly guitar for example, learned many styles and reached the level where apart from now being able to play own accompaniment in whatever way I find natural, when looking for what next was looking at say Mark Knopler and a few others that really make the instrument sing… and am capable of that… but next beyond that and not just copying ? Which is a reason I learned to play the flute, because it has the expression and sustain (without amplification) and closeness. It was that or violin, but violin is not my character…though I am learning a tune as played by Tommy Peoples on violin and that is very rewarding :slight_smile:.

Anyway, when out walking in forest a lot it says “A Flute” .

So I guess “each to their own” really, you cannot force appreciation of certain subtleties on others, and where they are being lost is more a reflection of how the world is nowadays than any ignorance by musicians. I just repeat that learners should be encouraged and supported in exploring the full capabilities of their flute and styles/methods of playing. They should do this by themselves anyway but it isn’t that obvious when starting, especially when with a set objective of how anyone thinks they want to play.

Maybe I sound like I know a lot, or am accomplished, but not so, it is just that this is all still fresh to me from having done much learning and in a relatively short space of time. Now after a year and a half I know quite well what playing the flute is about…but only know about twenty tunes and only play less than half of those as I feel to. There is no rush and have more than enough to suit any mood… the difficulty is that I keep hearing new tunes I think I have to definitely learn while also knowing that to learn a tune properly takes “quite a while”.