Is there a standard in the Irish Whistle mfg. sector that determines what width a high D whistle is to designate it as a narrow bore or wide bore? My whistle is 1/2 " or approx 13mm inside diameter and was wondering if it is considered a narrow bore or wide bore. I am thinking about selling this whistle and want to make sure I advertise it properly. The color difference is due to the lighting. I think it is a narrow bore.
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Thanks,
Scottie
There is no standard amongst makers.
For my own whistles I have narrow, standard and wide bore versions.
13mm ID I call standard bore for high D,
14mm ID I call wide bore for high D, and standard for high C,
12mm ID I call narrow bore for high D, and standard for high Eb.
Other makers use their own preferred sizes and may differ as to what is regarded as wide, what as narrow and what as standard bore.
Thank you Hans for the quick post.
Scottie
Maybe take a look at Merlin’s site, because they’re offering their ‘Excalibur’ high Ds and Cs in a choice of ‘narrow’ and ‘wide’ bore, there are clear photographs showing both and yours looks like ‘narrow’…
(Edit: except that the ‘apparently diminutive narrow-bore Soprano D’ shown with the silver low D is clearly the wide-bore model from the other photos!)
I agree, looking a those pics.
It also shows how a different maker comes up with a different classification system. Obviously Merlin whistles are classed as “wide bore”, if that model uses a particular tubing size, and “narrow bore” if the tubing size is narrower, regardless of the key (and length) of the whistle. So in this case narrow and wide bore does not refer to a tonal characteristic, which derives from a particular range of length-to-bore ratio of the whistle, but just to a tubing size.
I tried to email Merlin but for some reason when trying to use their email address as stated on the web site I get the email demon response of unable to deliver. I have to agree with Hans they probably just state narrow or wide according to the pipe they use. I did find in small print on the case handwritten NB which as all of you I would think narrow bore. I am curious now as to what diameter they use for their wide bore high D whistles. This one is pretty loud as it is and I can imagine what the wide bore would sound like. This one has good tone. Thanks for all of the responses.
Scottie
Aye, but this is where you have to be a bit careful in ‘making sure you advertise it properly’ because you can’t really describe it as ‘wide’ bore if Merlin call it narrow and perhaps shouldn’t leave it at unqualified ‘narrow’ if it’s not. So I’d suggest something like ‘Merlin Excalibur Silver, described by the makers as narrow bore but actually quite loud, full-toned and not really narrow in the conventional sense’.
It’s exactly like Hans said, when it comes to individual whistle makers, they pretty much all have their own thing going on, depending on what materials they are using. I prefer brass tubing for high whistles, and sometimes titanium when I can find it in the correct dimensions at a decent price. My “standard bore” for D would ideally have an ID of @.472". “Narrow bore” would be @.440" for a “quiet” whistle, and .460" for a narrow bore with near-normal volume. A “medium bore whistle” has an ID of @.5032", and a “large bore” might go as big as @.5345". As you can see, the differences involved in actual bore dimensions are small, with a range of only .0945" The differences in tone and volume can be huge, although they are by no means influenced by bore diameter alone.
For your purposes, if the whistle uses less air than your other high D’s, and/or is slightly quieter and/or “sweeter” sounding, it’s probably a “narrow bore.” If it takes a fair amount of air and is loud, then it’s probably a “wide bore.”
However, contrary to popular belief, “narrow bore” does not necessarily mean “quieter.” I choose a narrower bore for it’s tendency to produce a “sweeter” or more “pure” sound because a whistle with a narrow bore is easier to voice that way. This is why I list two dimensions for my own narrow bore whistles.
I guess the alu tubing is 3/4" OD, ca. 5/8" ID (15.8mm). That allows the range to go down to low G (which I would call narrow bore from the length-to-bore ratio). The high D in that bore would be extremely wide bore and probably very loud indeed.
actually, the OD is 5/8" with an average wall thickness of @.072" - which gives a bore diameter of @.4810" on most any high D “session whistle” in aluminum that I’ve encountered (Overton, Tilburry, Kerry, Alba, etc). Some makers may (and probably do) bore out 5/8" OD pipe to create an even larger bore. Typically, the main differnce between a quieter aluminum whistle and a session model is going to have more to do with the head design, than the bore diameter. For a narrow bore, they can range from 1/2" - 5/8" OD, depending on wall thickness. Once you start dealing with 3/4" pipe, not only is low G possible, but a quiet low D is possible as well, provided the pipe is thin-walled. Keep in mind that 3/4 PVC pipe, which has a thicker wall than aluminum, is commonly used for making D flutes. The wall of PVC pipe is thicker, but the ID is roughly the same, depending on what schedule the pipe one is using conforms to. Again, the difference in the design of the headjoint allows for more volume and stability in a flute.
Many makers are somewhat restricted by what is readily available in terms of pipe sizes. The schedules they conform to determine many things - particularly the OD, and this in turn determines the ID, or “bore” if one is using it for a whistle or flute.
Also keep in mind that more is possible with thicker-walled pipe than with thinner-walled pipe, in terms of range of keys, and volume.
5/8" OD (ca 1/2" ID) for Scottie’s whistle, but the wide bore aluminium models are surely thicker than 5/8" OD, judging from the images, and I guess 3/4" OD, as that is the most common step up in imperial tube sizes and goes well for Bb and A.
Hmmm… looking at the gold whistles on Merlin’s site, I see what you mean…
If that’s 3/4" tubing, it’s going to have a “bore” of roughly .606"… to me, that seems a little big for producing a decent second octave on a high D whistle, or to play at all without passing out from the air requirement (again, referring to key of high D )…lol
Maybe I’ll try making a couple some time. On the plus side, it probably has a nice feel in the hands, and at that size, it wouldn’t need to be much more than 10" long overall - about 2" shorter than most high D’s usually run, and hole spacing would still be very do-able… a short, stout little bugger.
Not 2" shorter, just a little bit. But definitely fat looking.
Here’s a pic of four high D whistles I made:
Extremely wide bore, wide bore, standard and narrow bore.
And click this link for a short sound comparison of these four. The four whistles played in the same order, fat to narrow.
The fat one is playable but very loud. I made it when I was exploring the suitability of this tubing for various keys. I am working on an in-between size of 15mm bore diameter, which will be very suitable for A and Bb, and for a loud wide bore high C, and possibly even for a very wide bore loud high D.
Thanks for all the good information guys. My Merlin is definitely a narrow bore just as you thought. Your whistles look very nice Hans thanks for your postings. I will have to check out the sound clip. Have a great day.
Scottie
If someone wants to standardize the terms “Wide Bore” and “Narrow Bore”, it should be relative to the length/bore ratio of the whistle.
Example: (These are extremes)
20:1 would be wide bore
30:1 would be narrow bore
I used to think that, but not any more.
I’ve posted my thoughts on this in a new topic:
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/in-search-of-the-optimum-bore/78869/1