I played around with this on a couple of early whistles and made one with a really large bore, about 14:1 (5/8" on a high e-flat). I really don’t play well, but I could get much better sound out of others than this one and I figured a lot of that was due to my “breaking the rules”. The whistle has become my car whistle, for practicing at traffic lights or when I am early for an appointment or whatever. The odd thing is that I am finding that after getting used to it, it really is a decent whistle. But it requires very different breath control than most whistles and sounds different, almost like a reed instrument in some respects. It loves the first octave, barely tolerates the second and will not set foot in the third.
A friend who makes NAFs tells me the sweet spot is 18-19 for his flutes. I have read opinions that varied for whistles and flutes, but generally in the low to mid 20s. I would really like to hear more opinions from whistle makers and players specific to 6 hole instruments in the alto to soprano range. The kind of thing I am looking for is wat a player might ask for that would cause you to suggest a narrower or wide bore and what you think the practical limits are.
I like the low 20’s for whistles. I should make some measurements of Glenn Schultz’s whistles, as he used a different bore for each key. I do know that the D has a sounding length of about 11" and bore diameter of 1/2". This is a pretty common design. OTOH, I believe the Grinter D comes in at a ratio of about 25, and my third favorite D, the Burke WBB is about 19.
For perturbations such as these, the main variations in my experience are the volume, balance, and the ease of octave changes. The direct comparisons I can make are again Glenn Schultz’s whistles. I have C, D, and E whistles in both wood and PVC. The PVC whistles all have 1/2" bores, but the C and E wooden whistles have different bores. The differences are VERY noticeable. The D’s play about the same, but I’m not at all fond of the plastic C. It doesn’t really have much character; it sounds to me kind of like an amateur that’s trying to play with the pros. The wooden C is quite possibly the finest whistle I’ve ever played. The plastic E has a wonderful sound, but it absolutely screams at the top of the second octave. Again, the wooden E is absolutely fantastic and doesn’t hurt my ears right into the third octave.
I should also point out that Glenn made low whistles from plumbing pipe, too. I think the lower ones of each series suffered from too narrow a bore. The low F has real problems at the bottom of its range, wanting to hop octaves when pushed.
Those are my opinions and experiences.
I can’t imagine playing an Eflat with a 5/8 bore in the car, but then I’m very protective of my hearing.
To me the optimal length to bore ratio for a whistle is around 22.
I try to keep the design roughly between a minimum of 17 and a maximum of 26.
17 and 26 being the extremes which I find acceptable for a wide bore and a narrow bore whistle. 21, 22, 23 is the golden middle, standard bore. 20 and below I would call wide bore, 24 and above I’d call narrow bore. This is from my experiences and are my preferences. Other whistle makers may differ.
Flutes are much more narrow bore, their optimum is about 30 or 31.
To add:
A wider bore favours the fundamental, a narrower the harmonics. So a wide bore whistle can have a more flute like tone. Of course the tone depends on a lot of other factors, like smooth or sharp edges, what kind of windway etc.
A wider bore also favours the bottom end, you can make the whistle so it can produce more powerful bottom notes. At the same time the high part of the second octave can get difficult, because the notes need to be pushed harder.
A narrower bore is the opposite: the low end is difficult to play with power, and can be too weak if the bore is too narrow, but the high end is usually easier to play, and easy to play right up into the third octave.
The golden middle tries to get everything, but is a compromise for both the low end and the high end. We should not forget that higher octave notes can only be produced by blowing a lot harder, so they are a lot louder, and all talk of balance between low and high octave is in a way fooling oneself. The loudness doubles from any first octave note to its second octave equivalent (ca 10dB louder). This is unavoidable, unless you switch to flute playing. And we just accept that and call it balance, even though it is not.
An interesting note - If I extrapolate that you can find a whistle pleasing at 19:1, for a 5/8" bore that would be a B which would share 2/3 of its range with that Eflat whistle. So as long as you kept your left index and middle finger planted, your ears should be in no danger. That jives with my experience playing it also - opening the last two holes is where it gets dicey.
Yes, you are one of my sources of info from that previous thread.
Thanks for the explanation about balance also. I had wondered how in the world it could be possible to get consistent volume in different octaves. I really need to spend some time learning to be a better player because some things I assume are a result of my playing are actually to be expected. It will also help once I start getting out to faires and whatnot. My friend the NAF builder started going to shows before he could play well and at one of his first shows his CD player died. By the end of the day he was pretty tired of the few melodies he could play and tasked himself to become a better player. Not suprisingly, he also became a better builder.
Another thing: a wider bore relative to length does not necessarily equate with a louder whistle. Overall loudness depends very much on the design of the windway, and how much airflow onto the edge it allows, and the width of the edge to receive the sheet of wind. One could build a wider bore and a narrower windway for a quieter whistle. But a wider bore usually means that one can have a wider edge and windway, and so can have more power.
The wider bore certainly tricked me into thinking I knew more about making a good windway than I do. When I made a smaller bore whistle with a similar but downsized windway it did not work nearly as well.
Hans–can a narrower windway make a wide-bore whistle play easier in the high register. And conversely can a wider windway make a narrow-bore whistle play stronger in the low register?
Yes. At least it is my experience with the type of head design I use.
The best result using 14mm bore for a D, C and Bb whistle I found with using three heads with slightly different widths, but same thickness/height of slot. The D played best with a narrower windway, whereas the Bb benefited from the extra power coming from the wider windway. But the D played a little quieter overall. The differences were not that big, but noticeable.
I’ll weigh in here too. I spent some of yesterday working on this boring topic myself. Looking for new gundrills as a result.
I do think you will find varying opinions from various makers based on their personal conception of a “good” whistle. I try to keep the length to bore ratio between 22:1 TO 25:1 on whistles where I am drilling the bore. On the whistles made from existing pipe, I work backwards determining what keys for which each type of pipe would be best suited. I’ve documented what type of pipe I use for each key in other threads.
Hans offers some good insights. I seem to be thinking along the same lines as chas. I believe Glenn Schultz had a lot right and didn’t necessarily document it all for the benefit of others. Some guidelines were offered in his 1996 Woodwind Quarterly article. Maybe Paul Busman has more insight on this. I’ve measured all the Weasels I have owned or been allowed to examine. Glenn seemed to have certain ratios that he held to for things like length:bore, toneholes:bore and window dimensions:bore. Those worked very well on the Thin Weasels. He appeared to push the boundaries for the Water Weasel designs - probably based on the pipes he worked with. Remember that you are trying to reach a balance among many dimensions to produce a whistle that performs well across its range.
Oh, and on those Burkes, there’s more going on inside those whistles than a simple length:bore measurement will reveal, at least that’s my observation.
Will learning to play the whistle with the overly large bore cause me to develop any bad habits? (other than playing the whistle in general ). The reason I ask is that I am getting better at controlling it and getting close to 2 octaves out if it. I don’t harbor any illusions about it being a really good whistle, but I am finding it is an acceptable learning/practice whistle. I do have to tongue any note above the 5th of the base octave to sound it cleanly, which might seem like an answer to my own question, though it’s not like that’s a technique I would not want to learn otherwise. With a little more practice to gain enough confidence to get over mic anxiety, I may post a clip soon.
It would be interesting if someone were to analyse a number of leading whistles and publish the ratio numbers.
What might we find? Maybe that all leading whistles tend to a certain number? Or maybe that there are several ways to get a successful whistle?
I know I tend to prefer whistles with a bit narrower bore, whistles with a sweet, easy upper range but still a decent low range.
The Burke Viper Low D perhaps is an example of a successful compromise that favours the low end, as it has a huge booming powerful bottom D, and pays for it with a high B that’s just on the verge of harshness. Seems that all the Low Ds I’ve played with good strong low ranges have this sort of high B.
The Low Ds I’ve played with a sweet nice high B have poor bottom Ds.
The fact that you need to push the high end notes more if you want the low end to be strong does not mean that the high B will of necessity tending to be harsh or less sweet. But it will be louder than for a narrower bore design.
Harshness = strong harmonics can arise when tone holes and window do not allow smooth airflow when the volume is increased. The edges of tone holes and window will create extra turbulence with the stronger tone column vibration at the increased loudness.
What might we find? Maybe that all leading whistles tend to a certain number? Or maybe that there are several ways to get a successful whistle?
Not one number, but around the same figures, same middle range. And of course one can deviate from this to some degree, and still get a successful whistle. It will just exhibit some different playing characteristics, but these could still be successful in the right hands!
I’ve kinda “been there and done that”. I started making my own whistles around 1996 but I kept buying every whistle I came across as well. I rationalized that I was doing a survey of the designs that were available at that time. I had a few oldies in the survey too. By 2003 that amounted to close to 100 whistles made by other makers, both factory produced and hand made. I also examined other whistles I encountered when permitted by their owners and I continue to do that to this day. I’ve worked out a set of ratios and no, I won’t publish them here. My observations are similar to what Hans has stated. The designs that work well follow the conventional wisdom of the ages. There is a range of dimensions that can work for each design factor such as bore, tone hole size, window size, etc. There are lots of possible combinations among those factors and that is what gives us the rich array of whistles to choose from today.
My observations on low D’s are similar. Making a good low D is not particularly easy, IMO. A whistle maker can scale the designs of their whistles up from high to low but you can’t similarly scale the physiology of the player.
Player preferences drive a lot of whistle design goals or at least they should. And there is little consensus in player preferences on many whistle characteristics. Producing a whistle design that jumps through the hoops that players expect to put them through is a real trick.
). The reason I ask is that I am getting better at controlling it and getting close to 2 octaves out if it. I don’t harbor any illusions about it being a really good whistle, but I am finding it is an acceptable learning/practice whistle. I do have to tongue any note above the 5th of the base octave to sound it cleanly, which might seem like an answer to my own question, though it’s not like that’s a technique I would not want to learn otherwise. With a little more practice to gain enough confidence to get over mic anxiety, I may post a clip soon.
My observations are similar to what Hans has stated. The designs that work well follow the conventional wisdom of the ages. There is a range of dimensions that can work for each design factor such as bore, tone hole size, window size, etc. There are lots of possible combinations among those factors and that is what gives us the rich array of whistles to choose from today.