I imagine so- although all the links have departed from that thread - so I can’t see what you mean.
But yes. I am well aware of the dynamic under that.
In fact, my first whistle designs were more jewellery than instrument.
I got saved from that awful road by getting introduced to the true tradition , whew!! Nearly made a big mistake!
I will say this though - amongst us, Copeland is one of the few excused to make a detour on that road - he’s earned it - he was on-tradition all along.
To go there without the spine of tradition is a big mistake .. it will end in tears.
I have an O’Riordan nickel-plated brass D “Wilderness” model that John Sindt made D and Eflat silver bodies for. As I recall it was sometime around 2006.
I’m sure those ladies have their reasons for playing their particular instruments (Ms Suwanai plays Jascha Heifitz’s old instrument), and given the results I am not going to argue with those reasons.
Myeh. Doesn’t sound ‘special’ in any way. In any event, I can’t tell any difference between their instruments and other violins playing the same music (but also at a professional level). Obviously these two fiddlers are pretty darn good. They are professionals. They could probably make an old three string cigar box fiddle sound positively heavenly!
And yes, they have their reasons for their choice. Others choose differently. So long as the music is beautiful, who cares who made the instrument?
Correct. I do have a John Sindt Eb silver tone tube with his standard brass/delrin head. I can’t say weather or not it sounds different than a brass tube. Thought about making a brass Eb tone tube for it but it’s not very high on my list of things to do. I do have a Generation Eb brass tube but I think that might not be a true experiment in that the Generation is metric and the Sindt is new world inches. I will measure them and see/listen if I am able to tell any difference.
In answer to the question, ‘Why a silver whistle?’, why not?
As for Strads vs. other violins/fiddles, here’s an interesting discussion between Aly Bain and Nicola Benedetti on the merits of his Adolf Sprenger and her Strad:
My Snidt Eb tone tube is .5’‘od the Generation Eb tube is .502’‘od. Machined .002’’ off the Generation to fit the Snidt head. Played them and to me they sounded the same. Then I polished the inside and out and still they played the same.
Yes there is a difference of the inside diameter. The Sindt is .466’‘id and the Generation .475’‘id. That is a .009’’ difference. Two sheets of paper are .008’'. It could be possible that someone else may be able to hear it different.
I do agree with much of the other posts and both brass and silver can be enjoyed.
Believe you me, I had no preconceived notions about how a Brazilian Rosewood headjoint on a silver Boehm flute would play- never played one, never heard anybody talk about playing one, never heard one being played.
About vintage 8-key English flutes (c1830-1870) I did have much experience, but those were all made of cocus, except the boxwood Rudall & Rose I played for years. And much experience with modern-made “Irish flutes”. Any fluteplayer will tell you, I’ll bet, that boxwood flutes, grenadilla flutes, and cocus flutes all play differently. Once you’ve played hundreds of different flutes from the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries you get to know the different playing characteristics of different woods. To ascribe the differences to other factors is absurd; it would entail all makers of grenadilla flutes throughout the world and across the centuries to have entered into some dark secret conspiracy to make all their grenadilla flutes play a certain way.
Well, show us the evidence! I’ll more than happily alter my opinion as “absurd” when these things can be quantified. Secret cabals notwithstanding, until then, all I can really do is remain respectfully skeptical.
I think Mitch said it very well a while back: "Regarding the actual sound of whistles and flutes: The physics of it involves a complex quadratic mix of ultra-sensitive exponential dynamics. In other words, it is a crap-bag of “Butterfly-effects … Then, on top of that, the player will have an even more bazaar range of sensitivities.”
Didn’t you just answer your own challenge with the quote from Mitch?
What he says carries a lot of weight with regard to any musical instrument. The largest collection of ‘whistles’ to be found anywhere is a pipe organ. Organ building has hundreds of years of history behind it that have shown what works and what doesn’t when it comes to metals and alloys (primarily tin and lead) and the tone required thereof, and species of wood for wooden pipes - so, why wouldn’t this translate to Irish whistles and flutes of any kind? As one who has spent much of the last 35 years voicing organ pipes, I can attest that the sound from a set of pipes of mostly lead is not the sound you will get from an identically built set of pipes from mostly tin. Some even say that the interior of the pipe influences the timbre - whether it is planed or scraped smooth or retains the linen finish from the metal casting table.
It is indeed a ‘crap-bag of butterfly-effects’ if ever there was one!
I recall Michael Copeland telling me a long time ago something to the extent that his understanding of organ pipes was at least one of the factors that played an initial part in his whistle making.
the deepest part of what I learned from pipe-organs was that each pipe is a “man” (man/woman/everything in-between remotely human).
He has his mouth, he has his ears, he has his lip, his tongue and beard.
This is not new to me - I have studied pipe organs from when the priest showed me the church-organ when I was very young (Back then, the church organ was not part of the priest - it was a magnificent backdrop to the apse and only good players were allowed to touch the keyboard and stops during services - and specially when everyone went away to leave the musicians to play).
But a whistle must serve 6 pipe lengths in 2 octaves.
Regarding wood:
Yes - the math says that it’s all knowable - that you can make a flute out of concrete and it makes no difference if it was wood or cheese.
Then you pick up a wood whistle and play it - and you feel it. Or even a brass Gen.
Brass tends to dampen, but not all
The waves are very complex - we are taught that the resonances are all about the length to the lowest hole according to the speed of sound .. so if that is true, then all we are talking about it the dominant frequency - easy right?
But the speed of sound is not fixed. So it depends on altitude, humidity and temperature and the volume of the column being resonated - straight or conical?
And then .. if conical, what is that affect of the hole-size? How conical? what of the second register?
OK .. that’s just the pitch - fine. Add a tuning slide and only tune-up when the instrument is warm.
Nice start .. next?
And what does the tennon-gap do to the speed of sound in that tube? The height of the tone-holes?
And how do you get it to be proportional .. it’s not linear .. it affects the cone-pitch.
And if you under-cut? are you creating a virtual cone?
What does that do to the hole positions?
Have you noticed the under-cut pitch correlation to a point away from the G-hole when a tuning-slide is present - and what volume does the slide produce - and the affect of the speed of sound even before the pressure-wave hits a tone-hole?
OK - you got all that under control. So why does the whistle sound like rubbish?
And back to the man - why is he unhappy? Is it his lip, his mouth, his ears, his beard?
SO you get the man happy - but then .. what about the tree he is made from?
What part of the tree was he from?
Can you feel him in your fingertips? Can you feel his voice above the holes as you shade-out his harmonics?
Do his feet plant-down when you cran him onto the bell-note?
Coming from a modern flute background, I can tell you that material matters. I can hear and feel the difference between a high nickle flute and a pure silver flute. I went from a high nickle silver Gemeinhardt to a pure silver Jupiter. night and day how the two play. The Jupiter rings like a bell and plays effortlessly. Its a labored practice to get the gemeinhardt to play decently.
I imagine it makes a difference with whistles too although probably more marginal since whistles tend to be quite thin and flutes are very heavy. Which makes me wonder if a heavy whistle would be an interesting instrument…
It’s all relative. I can feel the sound of a whistle differing by how lightly or tightly (holding) while playing. Some tunes like a light vibrabration while others prefer a more solid grip. But, it’s the man, and how he’s feeling that particular moment that drives the eternal energy.
And yes ScottM, a heavy duty brass whistle vs. an aluminum or wood whistle would be interesting. Try a Reyburn brass whistle compared to an aluminum Burke.
Well.. obviously it’s pointless to compare materials of whistles and flutes unless all the other factors are the same. So if they’re not even the same brand then the other factors are likely to dominate vastly more than the material. Like trying to find the difference between a thick steel vs. thin steel car chassis by comparing a Volvo 242 with a Toyota Corolla and attribute the differences to the metal.
If the other factors are the same though.. here we’re probably on a nuances level. But from a physics-of-it standpoint - if you can feel the vibrations of a brass whistle then that means energy is used to vibrate the material. The energy comes from the resonance of the air column. That will modify the resonance to some level, it won’t come out unaffected. It probably affects the harmonics to start with, and maybe more.
All analysis from the comfort of this armchair, of course.
That’s why my opportunity to play a number of flute headjoints of identical “cuts” on the SAME body is so instructive. Same maker, same specs, same “cut”, same body. The only variable was the material, and the differences were absolutely clear. The proof is in the playing.