What's so great about being 'self taught'?

Uilleann Pipes
1

I was talking to my whistle and pipe teacher about this a while back. Since he was movng away and I was going to have to find another teacher, I made the comment that I don’t think I’ll be able to make much progress as a piper without the help of a teacher. He wholeheartedly agreed, and helped me find other people who could teach me. We then started talking about the merits of being self taught vs. having a teacher. He told me (and he’s been playing flute and whistle for a long time, studied with some the best) that he could always tell when someone he plays with is self taught. He said that they are almost always have the wrong rhythm when playing a tune (especially reels) and they have a multitude of bad habits, such as bad timing on their rolls and unusually poor session etiquitte. He also added that many think they’re better than they actually are.

It seems that people I meet who are self taught are actually quite proud of it. Many seem to wear it like a badge of honor. People would say to me: “I taught myself how to play!” and I would groan inwardly. I would argue that if anything, being self taught puts you at a disadvantage to those who aren’t. Further, being self taught doesn’t make you a better musician, if anything, it makes you worse because you’ve had to learn everything by trial and error and you have not benefited from the experiences of others. Video, audio and book tutors provide minimal help because they can’t recognize a person’s strengths and weaknesses like a personal teacher can. A personal tutor can develop your skills and help you overcome weaknesses in a way that no book or video can. They can also give you a realistic appraisal of your abilities.

Then there’s the time factor, people who teach themselves to play any instrument take much longer to master it than would someone who is taught - and they develop a lot of bad habits.

I would love to get this group’s opinion on the matter.

2

Being self-taught is so slow comparing to have a teacher.
I am self-taught and I agree in a lot of things said in the earlier post.
Timing and rythm are the most difficult to get right as are the ornamentations.
I think I play very unorthodox and probably not half as good as I would have if I had had a teacher.
So to you with other UP-players around…You lucky bastards!

3

What’s so great about being self-taught? No teachers to tell you how much you suck!

Isn’t John McSherry pretty much self-taught?

A handful of exceptionally fine pipers are self-taught and a huge gaggle of very, very bad ones are as well…Er, I’m pretty much self-taught and I wouldn’t place myself in either category. Then again, I came to playing pipes from previous experience with other instruments of similar logic (other pipes, flute, whistle, etc.)

If you’ve got a very good ear, bucketloads of patience and diligence, listen religiously to recordings of good players, and occasionally make an effort to get out somewhere and go to a workshop or two, then yes, you can make a go of being self taught.

Otherwise, you’re f****d.

4

I’m not sure that there’s any argument that you can’t be self-taught, just that it is the poorest option if you have a choice. If there are no teachers or people of sufficient experience available to help you out, you have no choice but to teach yourself. But if you have the choice to make, you would be foolish not to get a teacher. Books and videos cannot watch you/listen to you and point out mistakes or potential bad habits.

I’m not sure John McSherry is the best example. Even if he had no teacher to start, he has had years of group and session experience, and been around other pipers long enough to correct any problems he might have had - which is the equivalent of having had a teacher in the first place.

So, yes, you can be self-taught, but no, you should not choose this as your first option IMHO.

djm

5

I dont think being self-taught is a burden at all. I think its a amazing feat to be able to learn with no-one there to keep you in a routine.

As to whether being self-taught makes you play in the wrong rhythm. I think its rubbish. If you listen to lots of different players and follow any written music given, the rhythm will come. Whether by rhythm you mean lilt? then thats a different story, it takes years of playing music to get that.

The comment that they “they they’re better than they are” is also rubbish IMO. Arrogance has little to do with whether your self-taught and i think your more likely to be big-headed if your taught by x or y teacher.

Dan

6

Thorpe,

The comment that they “they they’re better than they are” is also rubbish IMO. Arrogance has little to do with whether your self-taught and i think your more likely to be big-headed if your taught by x or y teacher.

This is an excellent point. I’ve endured many people who’ve been taught by mr-famous-so-and-so and it really seems to go to their head. Also, arrogant people would behave the way they do regardless of how they’re taught, it’s more of a personality thing than anything else I suppose.

But some people are better than others. That’s just a fact. I suppose the main difference lies in how people conduct themselves and isn’t really correlated with how they’re taught.

How you’re taught though, I believe, has everything to do with what sort of musician you’ll become.

7

I can’t speak for others, of course, but one of the best things I find in having a teacher is that it spurs me on to practise, as I know I’m going to have to show up with something to show. When I was trying to learn on my own, and things weren’t going so well, I had no impetus to work harder. I don’t have a regular weekly session nearby, but I understand that those who do also use this as a goad to make them practise and work harder.

djm

8

Perhaps the stakes are different when you’re teaching yourself the pipes, but I can say there is an enormous amount of satisfaction in being self-taught in general.

Yes, sometimes you learn things the hard way, play things all wrong for a while, and sometimes have to make painful decisions to to undo ingrained habits and learn something a new way. You need a good ear and you have to have a real hunger to learn and find things out for yourself too.

But the knowledge of the instrument and the music that you acquire by teaching yourself is really your knowledge, and you will (it seems to me) gain insights and figure out things that nobody else could have told you about.

Steve - self-taught Irish fiddler, whistle player and (in not too long a time I hope) box-squeezer.

9

… and I gotta admit that without StevieJ as a teacher I’d suck a lot more than I do now :slight_smile:

10

Being self-taught is actually a bit more of an embarrasment for me than a thing of pride, as I have no pedigree, so to speak. Lacking a traceable “lineage” does make me work hard at doing my best and ferreting out bad habits when I find them, but unfortunately it’s taken me longer to arrive at the basics than it might have otherwise. There’s nothing like having a good teacher to guide you.

11

You can have a class every day of your life from all the best players in the world BUT If you don’t put in the time at home listening back to recordings of the class and working hard on the techniques and stylistic peculiarities you will never learn a thing. It’s all about the time you spend on the instrument and listening intently to recordings that make you better NOT sitting in a class. Although I do feel that classes are hugely helpful… but you have to be attentive and willing to work on it afterwards.

Fabulous!

Patrick.

12

Yea, verily.

13

…and forsooth. :smiley:

14

In my experience, you gain most of your “tricks” – the little nuances that make piping interesting – from your fellow pipers, not from teachers. These finer aspects of playing aren’t very well covered in the tutors, so this is a problem for isolated, self-taught pipers. Other than this, it is merely a matter of preferred learning style. Some people can’t motivate without regular, structured lessons and someone to get direction from.

I have noticed that teachers do tend to put their stamp on their regular students. If this blunts their self-exploration of the music and instrument, it’s probably not a good thing.

15

The Sporting Pitchfork:" …Then again, I came to playing pipes from previous experience with other instruments of similar logic (other pipes, flute, whistle, etc.) "

This is a keen point. If an individual is coming to the Uilleann Pipes cold, that is to say, with no prior musical experience, learning this instrument by self taught methods will certainly be a burdensome thing that IMHO will only serve to create bad habits and a lifetime of frustration. Of course, there’s always an exception.

If one comes to the UPs after having played other instruments, but other pipes in particular, the road will be less rocky. Even then, there really is no substitute for the experience and loving guidance of an accomplished player.

But I am thinking that the real question(s) ought to be: ‘What is your reason for learning the UPs (pleasure or performance) and how far do you want to go with them?’ After all, there isn’t anything wrong with picking up the instrument because you are obssessed with them and you want to have a go at playing them…regardless of how good, bad or ugly you may be at it. But, my advice for those who want to take this instrument to infinity and beyond, at every possible chance, seek out the advice and examples of living, breathing instructors. And by all means, lose yourself within the recorded music…solo recordings being the optimum choice here.

16

One thing that irks me is that self taught pipers would have no feeling for rythm.
I played bass guitar and drums for about 15 years prior to picking up the pipes and i would dare say i had a little bit of a feel for rythm. (i guess i would have been kicked out of numerous bands if i wouldn’t have had that)

Now i am a pretty much self taught piper (i do play with others but not very often) and the only thing that prevents me from being on time, rythm wise, is technique/instrument mastery.
You CAN’T be on time if you don’t master the instrument can you?
Now 6 years later my fingers stick less to the chanter than they used to and my rythm is fine, if i don’t try to do too much fancy stuff and screw it up that is.. :smiley:

Someone said that the upside to being self taught is no teacher says you suck?
Well.., i think the upside also is, nobody tells you HOW to play or what you can and can not do and you won’t become a clone of your teacher either.

I know a guy that plays the pipes on the street, busking, for a living.
He has no teacher, no access to a pc/cds and only a taperecorder.
That guy has developed his own style.
Ok, some stuff he does may be “unorthodox” but still, who are we to tell him he can’t play like that?
He’s not going to be a “paddy keenan clone” like i see so many of.
(at least they try to be :smiley: )

Oh, small plug..
The guy plays a van Daal full set in any type of weather.
Once a year he visits the netherlands and i sometimes meet him.
His set looks all tattered and stuff but it always plays, in tune, regs working etc and he hardly ever fiddles around with it. :smiley:

17

I attended a workshop held by Brian McNamara in Copenhagen 2 years ago and he couldn’t understand how people like myself could play in a “vacuum” that is with no other up:s around.
But this is what it’s all about isn’t it… The love of the music and your instrument in special. Doesn’t matter if I’m playing for myself or with my friends in the local band, I’m always interested in improving and I think it’s like all “sciences” Once you’ve come to a certain level you have to try the things you just don’t know yet but by doing so the things you already knows improves as well…

The only ones I know that probably want me to quit music altogether are my neighbours…hehe

18

From StevieJ:

Perhaps the stakes are different when you’re teaching yourself the pipes, but I can say there is an enormous amount of satisfaction in being self-taught in general.

This is certainly true if you’re the type of person who thrives on finding things out for themselves. It can be incredibly frustrating if you’re not.

Again from StevieJ:

But the knowledge of the instrument and the music that you acquire by teaching yourself is really your knowledge, and you will (it seems to me) gain insights and figure out things that nobody else could have told you about.

Excellent point about it being your knowledge, this is probably the single biggest motivator for the ‘self-taught’ type. I disagree a little that you gain insights you wouldn’ t get if you had a teacher. You’re just as likely to miss these insights as gain them unless you are unusually perceptive. I think gaining these insights becomes more of a crap shoot if you’re self-taught.

From Patrick D’Arcy:

It’s all about the time you spend on the instrument and listening intently to recordings that make you better NOT sitting in a class. Although I do feel that classes are hugely helpful… but you have to be attentive and willing to work on it afterwards.

Excellent point, just because you have a teacher doesn’t mean you shouldn’t practice and listen. I think some would argue that listening is more important than practicing (at least for beginners). I refer you to the thread on beginning pipers that Pat Sky started.

From eric_smith:

In my experience, you gain most of your “tricks” – the little nuances that make piping interesting – from your fellow pipers, not from teachers.

This is true, but you can’t really call yourself self-taught, you’re learning from someone else. This is an excellent way to learn - probably the best way in my opinion - and this would be harder for beginners than anyone else I would suspect.

From Joseph E. Smith:

But I am thinking that the real question(s) ought to be: ‘What is your reason for learning the UPs (pleasure or performance) and how far do you want to go with them?’ After all, there isn’t anything wrong with picking up the instrument because you are obssessed with them and you want to have a go at playing them…regardless of how good, bad or ugly you may be at it. But, my advice for those who want to take this instrument to infinity and beyond, at every possible chance, seek out the advice and examples of living, breathing instructors. And by all means, lose yourself within the recorded music…solo recordings being the optimum choice here.

I love this, I couldn’t agree more - most excellent point. I imagine we all got into this because we love Irish music and particularly the UP. I suppose the self-taught person would, at some point - if he/she is motivated enough to play Irish music well, seek out the help of more advanced players/teachers to get them to the next level. Could it be argued then that anyone motivated enough to play at the expert level inevitably ends up with a teacher? Can you get to that level without one? If all you wanted to do was play in your basement, then you could teach yourself and take it as far as you care to, but if you want to be a really good player, you need a teacher. What do you think of that?

From Rick:

One thing that irks me is that self taught pipers would have no feeling for rythm. I played bass guitar and drums for about 15 years prior to picking up the pipes and i would dare say i had a little bit of a feel for rythm. (i guess i would have been kicked out of numerous bands if i wouldn’t have had that)

I think the rhythm thing applies mostly relatively inexperienced players who teach themselves, at least that’s what my teacher and I have experienced - and I think it’s directly correlated to how familiar you are with ITM. I wish I could remember where I read this, but I read somewhere that when you’re learning an instrument to play Irish music, you’re actually learning two things at once: the instrument and Irish music. I really think this is true. To learn the instrument, you need to practice. To learn Irish music, you need to listen. If you’ve been playing for 15 years, then you’ve pretty much learned Irish music, and this is where the rhythm comes from (I think). You pretty much know what a reel, jig, hormpipe or whatever is supposed to sound like. Playing the pipes for 6 years, in my book, doesn’t make you a beginner - it sounds like you’ve already gone through the learning curve successfully and I congratulate you - no small feat at all. But my question to you is: did you do it all by yourself always or would acknowledge that you had help at certain points along the way?

I’m starting to wonder if there is no such thing as a truly self-taught musician.

I should mention that one reason for starting this thread was that my instructor and I have noticed, tragically, that many people who are proud of being self-taught (the ‘badge of honor’ thing) have playing that leaves a little to be desired. Most seem to have big personalities that put them in the center of a session or group. Further, I’ve noticed that of all the players I’ve met, these are the ones who could most use some guidance from someone else. If they had been given instruction from someone else, then I would be in a position to endure only their personality, not their playing. I’m just curious to see if I’m right or not.

The ratio of players who are self-taught and good and gracious to those who are self-taught and bad and obnoxious seems, to me anyway, quite low.

Sorry for the long post, I’m having a great time with this discussion.

Regards,
Tony

19

Although I attended clases at the WCSS I consider myself by and large self taught. The first years of my learning (Willie weeks once a year aside) were spent in isolation. Did I become a really good player, I don’t know, you never stop learning and improving I suppose. I listened a lot and tried t oget my head around what was going on in the music I was listening to, I think that shaped my playing more than any teacher I went to. Can you learn in total isolation, the very nature of the music (an oral tradition transmitted by ear, handed on from one musician to the next) implies you can’t but it’s more the interaction between learner and the living music, assimilation of the music by submersion, than a formal pupil-teacher relationship that makes it tick.

20

It occured to me just now that I’ve never wanted to emulate anybody who wasn’t dead. Hmmm. Hang on, I’m going to turn the gas on…where’s that cyanide…
No, really, I tried to play like Touhey, then Clancy or Ennis or Reck (got the flat set at that point). Also I’ve always taken after the old fiddlers (esp. Sligo). I still sound a bit like each here and there but the blend of it all is unique. I have some “faults” or “bad habits” but nothing is really at stake playing in the kitchen, wouldn’t you say? Some very favorite musicians of mine had “bad habits” that were part of their style; like I was saying elsewhere about Tommy Reck, this doesn’t seem to happen so much anymore. Perhaps this is the good side of learning on your own, or not taking too many lessons.
Anyway, what teachers? When I started out I could only dig up two names of pipers, one of whose phone number was kaputt. The other one was very helpful but mostly I went it alone. I still shudder occasionally when I listen to recordings of myself but try to learn from the “mistakes,” iron them out. And some people just aren’t very capable teachers, whatever else their talents.