I’m not sure it matters what Irish people play…[& I’m not sure that the whistle is truly an Irish instrument. I think it was adopted, just like the reel was adopted from Scottish music, or polkas from Europe.]
Personally, I’ll play anything that works well, is cheap and inconspicuous.
I wouldn’t be so forward as to suggest that I am in any way an example of a true Irishman…although I probably am.
[my mother will be very ashamed]
Oh, and on the subject of “narrow bores” and other whistle/pipes insults, maybe I’m a “doctored mouthpiece” [read my other posts to get that one !!!]
So play what you wish, and be proud of it.
[but not too loud, please]
On 2002-05-15 07:42, Peter Laban wrote:
Roger, I was the resident pedant, wasn’t I?. Or was I the arrogant know-all?
Pendants and know-all’s might care to explain the difference! A third variable, of course, is that of the dogmatist - which is a an individual not dissimilar to the first two, but also (I think) involves heavenly bodies. I don’t have one of those, so I must be 1 and 2.
(It’s a joke)
Steve
[ This Message was edited by: stevepower on 2002-05-16 04:45 ]
On 2002-05-15 13:26, The Weekenders wrote:
But a beautiful whistle well-played would add to any session, I would think. Is that right, Peter or others?
A while ago in the expensive vs inexpensive thread I described a situation where a relatively well-known player walked into our session playing a wooden thingie that was LOUD. Comments circulating among those present concentrated around the words ‘loud’ and ‘American’ and not on the playing. It is interesting to note that only two people had a clue about the player’s identity and myself only after the boehm-flute came out of the handbag
Loud instruments don’t do you any favours if you walk into an environment as a stranger, that’s all I can say.
Peter, LOL.
Joannie is most certainly loud and American I think our real saving grace as Americans is that we are also very friendly, and Joannie is among the friendliest I’ve met.
You know, it’s funny how many times this discussion has come up and it always resolves itself the same way: the people with really fancy whistles declare that it doesn’t matter what whistle you’re playing, but how you play it (thus they are entitled to play really expensive whistles), while the people with cheap whistles argue the same thing (thus they are entitled to play cheap whistles). The thing that bugs me is that what begins as a discussion of what whistles are played in Ireland always becomes derailed when the fancy whistle owners find it necessary to defend their own fancy whistle tendencies. I own a bunch of fancy whistles, and they’re great, but that doesn’t mean that the Irish play them, nor does it mean that I wouldn’t get dirty looks should I take them to a session.
My 3.141592653589… cents.
Chris
Loud instruments don’t do you any favours if you walk into an environment as a stranger, that’s all I can say.
Thanks for answer, Peter. I was remiss for not looking in the archives about this subject.
Soooooo, my next question, which may be a thread in itself is: which are considered loud? I’m addressing this to all as I don’t expect Peter to be the end-all expert of whistles he may never have even heard. I have a Burke brass and alum. Ds. Are they considered loud? I don;t think of them as loud as much as sweet but I’m standing behind them. I find my cheaper whistles now sound raspy and annoying after owning the Burkes, but I could see that a soft raspy whistle would not be as prominent as something real “outspoken”
I know from reading these threads that the narrow bore whistles and hoovers are supposed to be soft. Also, many people mentioned Susatos being used a lot, which I thought were kind of loud.
So is it really loud AND expensive or perhaps ostentatious that would cause trouble?
Sorry if this is beating the horse to smithereens.
[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-05-16 13:00 ]
One of the things I have a real problem with, with the Irish is this ‘Snobbery’ (for want of a better word) around the instruments that people play - especially when it comes to whistles.
What Peter describes here with Joannie is typical - and IMHO totally uncalled for. I don’t know Joannie Madden from a hole in the ground, but based on the rave reviews she gets here she is obviously quite competent on the whistle - and a nice person to boot. Just becasue she was not playing the ‘instrument of choice’ in the session in question, and was louder than the usual whistle, suddenly she’s not accepted - despite her talent. I don’t understand it. At least on this side of the ocean you can walk into a session just about anywhere and they will accept you for who you are and as long as you can play along with the group they don’t care what you play on.
I was actually after taking my leave from this, but to clarify a few things. I did not at all say the person in question was not accepted, I merely said most comments goign around were not concentrating exactly on the playing. Secondly there wer a few other things goign on as well beside the whistle being loud, involving a place on the stage, The microphone of Peter Browne who was recoding for RTE and a few other litlle things that were very funny to watch from where I was sitting. Thirdly, this was a session on the last sundaynight of a Willie week. Quality was not an issue, everybody on and beside the stage could play without anybody standing out upwards or downwards on the quality scale and most of those not playing on the night knew their music well. There was no snobbery involved, just a few interesting bits of dynamics within the group.
And what is loud you ask, well anything that can be heard over those who were playing amplified on stage and the ten or so playing beside the stage plus the noise of some 50 or more well oiled punters talking. That is loud.
Gerry,
this Irish snobery thing is all in your mind.Just because one member has an opinion doesnt mean it,s shared by everyone in Ireland.Peter makes a very good point and I agree with him.To simply blend in with your fellow musicians is perhaps not a view that,s shared internationaly but its a formula that works and requires self regulation and discipline.I live in Austria and have on occasions been subjected to the agony of listening to brass instruments that should only be played outdoors or in an orchestra pit.Listening is an important part of the music I love to play and the range of a soprano whistle is such that it need not be deafening loud to be heard. Peace, Mike
I’ve not been to Ireland, so perhaps I shouldn’t talk, but my understanding is that by and large, a session wouldn’t be teasing you unless you were accepted. If you were actually -not- accepted, you’d be very politely taken aside and given some suggestions about finding a teacher, practicing some technique, or whatever… not exactly told -not- to play, but if you’ve got any wits you’ll get the hint, and go practice diligent for six months before trying again.
I’m not sure what anyone entrenched in Irish session culture would make of it, but I thought ‘Ireland, a Tin Whistle, and a Bicycle’ was a good read, and everything I read in it meshes with what real, live players say. (Of course the only real, live, and actually Irish player I know didn’t start picking up the music until -after- moving to the states… but many of the more serious American players have spent a fair time in Ireland.) Guess I’ll get to judge accuracy for myself one day, when I get over there!
The only session on this side of the pond I visit with any regularity has a pretty well-known reputation as a ‘hot-shot’ session, so I, and most other amateurs, know better than to try to sit in before our time, so I’m not sure if this dynamic is true to American sessions. My impression from the above book was that at least one itinerant whistler found sessions in Ireland to be right at home from what he knew of sessions in America.
ChrisA - Are you talking about the Burren? If so, have we met? I live right up the street and hang out with Peter, Dan, David and the rest of the Burren gang pretty often. Every once in a while I get the nerve to play, but I’m a great believer that if you aren’t able to make a positive contribution than any contribution you make is a negative contribution, so I mostly just listen, make friends and have fun.
Best,
Chris
Geeze, that’s a good thing you’re here Peter, you can put some sens in hard-to-fill brains from time to time. It’s all about common sens. If someone is stupid enough to sit in a session with a Susato, while a very good player is playing a Generation, I’d say that’s a lack of common sens, or lack of respect. There’s obviously nothing wrong about loud (or expensive) whistles, but you gotta know when not to use them. Loud whistles are obviously good, how would you fight the darn pipes!
I mainly play pipes - Andreas Rogge, wide-bore D, but with a gentle reed which even Peter could hardly take exception to. The main drawback is that in a session I can hardly hear myself above the noise of the bodhráns.
I use a whistle (Cillian O’Briain - tweaked feadog?) for slow airs, for which I find it generally more expressive than pipes, for polkas, for tunes which I’m not too sure of and when the music gets too fast for me to keep up on pipes (or when I’ve had too much to drink).
Incidentally, it’s worth pointing out that the wide-bored D pipes chanter was developed in the US by the Taylor brothers specifically in order to achieve greater volume in American concert halls. This US loudness thing has obviously been going on a long time
Hey, I go away for a few days and find all these great comments/responses to my question! Thanks eveyone!
To clarify one thing, I for one do play what I like, and now (particularly since I just destroyed my Oak D) I spend pretty equal time on my SweeTone and Copeland.
Having seen drastic differences in cultural attitudes, perceptions, sensibilities, etc, between Western and Asian cultures, I guess I was wondering whether, in the the Realm of Whistlery, there were any significant cultual differences between Ireland (the source of all this anyway) and America with regards to stuff like preferred whistles, expensive vs. inexpensive, etc., especially we spend so much time on the board talking about whistle makes & makers.
As will so many things, there doesnt seem to be a clear cut answer, other than, more often than not, its all about the music…if you can cut it, then maybe it doesnt matter what you’re playing, either for the “Real” Irish, the “Unreal” Irish, or the Americans (who by all international accounts only come in the “Unreal” variety).
So now I’m gonna go play the cute Ocarina I just bought in the Denver airport…
Again thanks everyone for such thoughtful … uh… thoughts…you’ve earned this thread a well-deserved Red Pill.
OOPs, I just reread my last post, and a casual reader might be mislead to believe that I’m trying to usurp Weekender’s title as ThreadSlayer.
Im not meaning to kill this thread…if you have more thoughts about loud whistles, or anythign about the other tendrils of the thread, please post them.
I think our real saving grace as Americans is that we are also very friendly, and Joannie is among the friendliest I’ve met.
Peace, Mike