What I learned from my new plastic flute

Irish Flute
1

When I played the baroque flute exclusively (15 years), I had one flute that I bought on the advice of my teacher, and just played it. If it was good enough for her (professional, with two CDs as soloist, and many orchestral CDs), it was good enough for me, and I never thought about getting or trying another flute.

When I took up the Irish flute last summer, and discovered this board, I got caught up in the discussions about the strengths and weaknesses of different flutes. I ordered a flute from a maker, and meantime purchased a flute from a board member. Sticking to my plan to only own one flute, I kept one, and handed the other on. Recently I bought a plastic flute off a board member for travel and sessions.

Those interested can look at my reactions to the two wood flutes last September. My comments concentrated on the differences between the flutes, which appeared to me to be large. At the time I attributed the differences to embouchure shape, and lined vs unlined heads, since the flutes were copies of the same or very similar flutes. I expected to notice a big difference between my blackwood small hole Rudall copy, and the plastic large hole (but still narrow bore) flute, especially given the oval embouchure on the wood flute, and the modern embouchure on the plastic flute. There are differences between the plastic and wood flutes (the plastic flute is easier to play and louder), but these are relatively small, compared to the similarities.

So while more experienced players on this board mostly argue that “it’s the player not the flute”, and I gave intellectual assent to that, this experience makes me understand this for the first time. I am just adding to the chorus that says above a certain level of quality, a good player can get the sound they want from any flute. I think in hindsight that I got it right with my monogamous relationship with my baroque flute (Folkers and Powell after Thomas Lot, c. 1720), and wrong with the quest for “a better” Irish flute.

Now this doesn’t mean that I am cancelling my order for another wooden flute from a different maker. Why not just see? I am still trying to talk myself out of bidding for the Olwell on e-bay. And if I should see a 2nd hand Murray, I’d likely leap at it. But it does make it clear to me (it was always clear to my wife…) that I am talking about wanting rather than needing, because my current wooden flute will take me wherever I am able to go. Likely, so would the plastic flute. For those with the collecting instinct like me, it’s easy to find reasons to get “just one more” that have nothing to do with need.

Hugh

2

Your general conclusion may be correct, but it’s based
on an insufficient sample of comparisons, if I may say so.
That these two particular flutes sound pretty much the
same is slender evidence. Maybe you are
generalizing too quickly.

FWIW, my experience with well made flutes has been
different. Sincerely, the serpent in the garden

3

Jim, maybe you’re the one generalizing too quickly. You’re comparing your limited experience with someone who’s been at it five times longer than you have and has stuck to the same flute and developed a stable embouchure.

Perhaps when you’ve racked up 15 years playing as flutefry has, you might find yourself fully in agreement with him.

4

Brid Donohue, a lovely flute and whistle player from Clare, who has a new whistling CD out and who you can hear playing the flute every Saturday night at Friel’s in Miltown Malbay, says on the subject of flutes that to her mind it is best to stick with one flute and learn to play it. Shopping around for flutes or trying different ones doesn’t work because it takes so long to adapt to a flute before you really know it. That’s good enough for me and I’m sticking with one flute only.

5

It’s generally accepted and has been for a very long time, I think. But no matter how many virtuoso players and/or teachers of extraordinary experience expound the fact, there will always be those who reject it, be they beginners searching for the ‘magic flute’ which’ll play itself with no effort on their part, those who incredibly believe they can ‘master’ any flute in a couple of months, or those caught up in the belief that they’re ‘stronger’ players for their chopping and changing (even though of course they have no idea how much ‘stronger’ they might otherwise have been, since they didn’t follow the ‘stick to one’ path).

6

So we might’s well all just play Bleazeys, right Gary? :stuck_out_tongue: You’ll never convince me that anyone will sound the same on my Bleazey as he will on my Hammy. Not anymore than someone would sound the same on an oboe as on a clarinet. They’re different instruments, good for different things.

Bloo, different people learn differently and thrive on different things. Chris Norman plays many different flutes, and it doesn’t seem to have hurt him a bit. I don’t think that it hurts one to shop around for flutes any more than it hurts someone to change majors in college. I said on a recent thread that if I’d stuck with my first flute, I wouldn’t be playing any more. I think it’s better to progress slowly than not at all.

7

I don’t put much stock in that “different people learn differently” thing, not if it is your beginners & collectors seeking validation for their approach. Sure anyone can do what they want, but that doesn’t make it good advice for someone who really wants to learn the instrument and the music. No problem upgrading from your first flute, did so myself when I recently replaced my Copley (nice flute, that) with an Olwell. I put down the Copley and picked up the Olwell, and that was that. I am too much of a beginner to understand things and so my approach is to listen to experienced players whose playing I respect, whether it’s comfortable advice they’re giving or not.

8

hehe, Chas you naughty fellow!

To tell the truth, I’d sound better on your Bleazey than on your Hammy I think, if my Bleazey and my Hammy are anything to go by, but that’s down to the size of the bodies and my chronic tendonitis: fat-ass big-hole flutes kill my left hand in less than 5 minutes, effectively paralysing the G finger. Slender petite flutes don’t do that.

Now, someone like flutefry who’s been playing the same flute for 15 years may pick up either flute and sound the same on them as he does on his F&P Lot.

Which is exactly what flutefry did, in effect, didn’t he?

Chris Norman may very well play different flutes today, but did he change flutes every coupla months when he started learning at ten? That’s the question. Since he began ‘classical’, I very much doubt it, but someone would need to ask him that.

Of course shop around, and of course collect. But there comes a time when you have to seriously settle down and stick with one to develop that all-important embouchure. Or just keep noodling on, becoming a jack of all flutes and master of none.

It’s still odd, isn’t it, that yer man Hugh, with 15 years on wooden flute, and not any old McChud neither, demonstrates what all the virtuousi and teachers have been saying for years, and still it’s poo-poohed. But I notice that it’s not being poo-poohed by anyone with more than 10 years on the instrument (yet!!!).

Edited to add: And to be fair, flutefry did say “I am just adding to the chorus that says above a certain level of quality…” when discussing the flutes.

9

I’m not poo-poohing anything. I’m just pointing out, possibly clumsily, that generalizations are of limited applicability, and nobody should take a generalization as God’s own truth 100% of the time.

Oh, and I’m in no way advocating switching flutes frequently. I’ve found my soulmate in the Olwell boxwood. But it took awhile to find the flute that fits me perfectly, and I don’t think I’d be progressing as fast if I stuck with one flute that doesn’t fit me as well.

10

Just to be clear:
I drew no general conclusion, in fact, and I pointed out that
Hugh’s general conclusion might be true. My point was
the argument ‘These two well made Irish flutes sound alike, therefore
all well-made IRish flutes sound alike’ is a weak one.
Generally an argument of the form ‘Two whatevers are alike,
therefore they all are alike’ provides slender evidence for
its conclusion, which may still be true, of course. Even if Hugh
is very good at blowing flutes, this limited comparison
doesn’t give him enough evidence to warrant the general conclusion.

I did say that my experience has been different, but I was careful
to preface this with "FWIW,’ to signal that my experience
may not warrant any strong conclusions either. As I didn’t
generalize, I didn’t overgeneralize.

Other than this, I think we are all agreeing, in fact.

My experience, again FWIW, has been this: An Olwell Pratten and a Byrne
Rudall sound strikingly different: the former has a big,
loud, open sound and honking lower end. The latter
is more focused, it has a very sweet second octave,
and one has to go about blowing the lower end in
a very different way. It’s a bit like the difference between
a dreadnought guitar and an archtop jazz guitar. The
former is more ‘boomy,’ the latter less so, but it may
cut through.

I don’t think somebody starting should switch flutes, if he
has a functional flute. But one or two years in, when one
has an embouchure and can at least play, there may
be something to be said for checking out other flutes
and seeing if one of them suits you better. Also if your
original flute is a very easy player, it can be helpful to
move to a more demanding flute–I believe that was my
experience with the Byrne. Learning to play it
really improved my embouchure. I honestly don’t think
that playing the very easy playing flute exclusively would
have helped as much.

Sooner or later, though, it may well make sense to settle
on one flute, the one that one has found suits one
best.

That’s my opinion anyhow. I certainly don’t think that
people who just stick with their original flute are making
a mistake. But I also don’t think that the flute that
suits you when you begin is necessarily going to suit
you two or three years later. Shifting about frivolously
or foolishly or to avoid learning to play is certainly
a bad idea, I think we all argree.

Also it may be that truly expert players can make all
well-made Irish flutes sound alike, but I don’t think one
can safely generalize from that to the conclusion that
all well-made Irish flutes sound alike.

11

This same discussion has been going on here for as long as I can remember. When I was learning to play whistle I would, every once in a while, visit this forum and this same discussion was going on, and with like passion. In those days I was intimidated more then anything else by my visits here and I sure as hell didnt post anything. I just figured I would never be able to afford a flute and therefore would never get to try my hand at playing one. Of course somehow I did get my hands on one and somehow figured out a way to get a tone out of it and that was it. I was hooked. 3 years and a lot of flutes later there is no doubt in my mind the the single flute idea is correct but I sure dont regret having had any of those flutes. It took over a year for me to discover how much my loley Barnett Samuel had to give. Now I don`t know from Hammey to Noy and probably never will, nore Pratten to R&R but may. After all its only been 3 years. I know I will settle on a single flute sooner or later but it has been great fun playing the flutes that have passed through my hands, and I have learned a lot about craftmanship and different makers and the feel and sounds of different woods and what keys are like to have and a number of other things including different types of music. The key word for me is “fun”. Thats what I have had since starting down this road. There are any number of reasons that we all ended up here talking about our passion, dogma not being one of them. I play to please myself and push myself to improve and in so doing have changed my perspective many times as to what is required to advance. At this stage embouchour has taken the main stage. I will do what ever I have to to improve it. Right now it apears that practice on the same instrument will be key in that indever, but that is just for me and I sure am not ditching my other flutes, they are just to much “fun” to play. I will be dead long before I gain the experience that some of you have on this instrument so the argument has little effect on me. But it is good fun to read and even participate in these little rambelings just to see the effect they have on people who are just starting out. Hopefully they will not be turned from their dream.

Take care

Tom

12

Good words, Tom

Fun, what a concept. :slight_smile:

13

I agree–it is, IMO, a worthwhile goal to learn to understand
a certain sort of instrument, in this case Irish flutes,
to know the different sorts and what they do. This isn’t
the same goal as learning to play the flute, and it’s
possible that it might interfere, but in my case I
don’t think it has. As I mentioned earlier, the Atwill
I got from Dave M certainly helps me understand
flutes–this is from 1832–and there’s no question
that learning to play it is sharpening my
technique.

14

Uh-oh, I swore I was staying out of this, but … I swear all the time! :laughing:

I’d like to mention there’s usually a bit more of a process involved than just picking up a flute and sounding like “you on a different flute” – at least in terms of certain nuances that the flute itself requires.

But the speed at which the process occurs all depends on experience level.

See, an experienced player knows enough to not only have developed a style, but also has AT SOME POINT gotten a background solid enough to have developed that way of playing; that consistency. And, thus, having established a benchmark style, a more-experienced player can be more sensitive to the differences of another flute.

From there, an experienced player can adjust more quickly (and subtly) to achieve the compromise between their style of playing and whatever a different flute requires.

The result … being able to quickly sound passably good (at least enough to fool all but those who know your playing as well as you do :smiley:; and natch, the top-level players’ ‘passable’ is of course, seamless to the rest of us unwashed) on anything you pick up.

But that’s NOT something that happens overnight. That’s something there’s a lot of time and development behind.

I really don’t think how many flutes a good player might have now should come into the picture at all.

What matters is that the player has developed the necessary sensitivity, skill, and agility to manage the changes between them.

Not to mention the self-knowledge to know what they’d REALLY need to do to get the new instrument playing the way they REALLY want. (uh-oh, more practice!)

I believe this is ALL due to experience and, at some vital point, consistency.

I’m willing to bet that if you ask top-level players, almost every one will tell you they spent significant time playing one flute at some point, whether it was because that was what they had growing up or whatever. If they were lucky, they had a good flute. And perhaps, if they were luckier, they were able to overcome a not-so-good one.

(which can make the good ones all the more gratitude-enhancing!)

So. The more experienced you are and the more solid your skills, the better you are at not only playing a flute the way YOU play, but more important, at quickly sensing and playing a flute the way IT needs to be played to get YOUR sound.

It’s a fine distinction I know. But I believe that’s what really happens … it’s a lot like learning a tune inside and out. The tune just gets better and better, and so does your playing as a result.

15

Cat, you are being a bit too coherent for a Friday… Let’s be careful.
:wink:

16

Hear, hear, Cathy! :thumbsup:

Dana

17

OK, let the mindless drivel resume! :wink:

18

Jim, you’ve been around debate, intelligent discourse, and academia a long time. If you’d wanted to discredit Hugh’s findings based solely on scientific grounds of ‘insufficient data’ you would have stopped at the end of your first paragraph. Instead, it seems to me that your paragraph prefaced ‘FWIW’ was included deliberately to blow the piece out of the water (‘not only do you have insufficient data, but my experiments prove otherwise’). You know full well that your experience is so wildly at variance with Hugh’s that there is no comparison between them at all, so why mention it at all, with or without the ‘FWIW’?

Hugh’s made a statement backed by his own experiments which supports conventional wisdom and teaching, and really the only people qualified to dispute it are those of comparable experience. Anyone disputing it with lesser ‘qualifications’ is merely speculating, or perhaps wishfully thinking.

Or am I missing something?

19

As usual there are multiple levels of discussion occurring here. I thought Cathy’s comments were wise, and I agree with her. As several have pointed out in this thread, sooner or later it is a good idea to really get to know a flute. With this experience, much of what one learns is transferrable to any flute. (Although I have to say I’ve been slow to adapt to Irish flutes from the baroque flute).

I assume most of us agree that one can learn a lot by playing different flutes about one’s preferences (this wood or that wood, this shape embouchure or that, lined or unlined, big holes or small holes, small, medium or large bore, with keys or without, loud or soft, etc). I am not arguing against the existence of preferences, or a person’s right to have preferences, or to change their preferences. Nor am I arguing that any flute is good enough. Playing on a dud is no fun and limiting. Nor am I arguing that physical issues aren’t important (weight, stretch). You have to find a flute you can play. Nor am I arguing that needs don’t change over time. Maybe you have switched to larger sessions, play with different instruments, are now using a microphone, have changed repertoires, whatever. Nor am I arguing that all flutes sound the same. Nor am I arguing against buying flutes for any reason that suits you. After all, it’s your money and time, and you are setting your own goals, and you can try to reach those goals by any path you choose.

Once you have a flute that is good enough quality that it doesn’t limit, that you can hold without strain, and cover the holes without difficulty, then the flute is no longer limiting. It’s the player that’s limiting. My thesis is that for all our obsessing over models, lined, or unlined, hole size, embouchure type etc, these aren’t the factors that limit progress in the long run, bearing the first sentence of this paragraph in mind. I am arguing that a good player can adapt to different flutes and get the sound s/he desires. That is consistent with the possibility that that sound might be harder or easier to get on different flutes. This thesis is not arguing for or against preferences, but for the utility of distinguishing needs from preferences.

Please activate the irony detection unit. I do understand that “All generalizations are false”. What I was trying to point out in my post was that my experiences 6 months ago led me to believe that differences in flutes are very important, and that my experience this week has led me to believe the converse. I hoped folks would notice the inconsistency in my post between the rational me (one flute is fine) and the irrational me (just one more…), as well as the inconsistency betweeen what I used to think and what I now think. I am not claiming that my experience will be your experience, but I am noting that my new conclusions fit in better with the conclusions of more experienced players than my former opinions. I am pointing out my inconsistencies as well as making an argument in the hope that one or the other or both are informative. But if not, not.

Jim, I think a careful reading of my first post shows that I didn’t generalize, and I didn’t make the claim that all flutes sound alike. I made the different claim that skilled players can get the sound they want from different flutes. Straw men and all that.

Academic joke. “Why do professors hate making decisions? Because then the argument stops.”

Hugh (a professor who doesn’t imagine that the argument is going to stop)

20

Sorry for the double post.