Well that hit 7 pages, so maybe I can turn the corner by bringing this back down to a newbie level.
After all this talk of Prattens, Rudalls, and such, I’m still wondering:
Does a loud flute or “cannon” usually require more air, and is it less responsive in the lower octave? Are volume and richness generally a tradeoff with ease of playability, or are they completely independent of each other? In other words, should someone buying a flute for home/solo playing be looking at different flutes from someone who plays sessions or busks?
I’m sure this has been covered ad nauseum, but at least it (kind of) changes the subject.
All good flutes can be played both loud and quiet.
There are also different kinds of loudness. A small-holed flute might be loud and the tone might carry very well in it’s own way. A large holed flute would tend to have more growl to it though.
A large holed flute would typically take more air and be less responsive. But it has to do with other factors than hole sizes as well.
It is a strange debate to me. I have 2 Bb fifes. The Healy deluxe is probably well known as being loud for a fife. Square embouchure, large tone holes, and big bore. I played it for a year and hit a level that I could not break through. I then purchased a Peeler fife. Round embouchure, narrow bore, small finger holes. At first the bottom octave was weak. I couldn’t even hit the bottom D. As I worked at it I was able to gain power with the D, I started to learn how to play the third octave better. I was finally able to exercise past plateau and play better. When I play the Healy now it is loud and powerful, but it is only that way because of the way that the Peeler fife makes me practice. My wife never tells me to play the high “B” on the Peeler fife louder though. I try to play it softer with purity of tone, and she seems to object more.
I guess some are easier to play loud, others teach you how to play.
PS, The Healy fife is a great instrument to play, in tune over three octaves, tunable, etc. A professional with the right technique could take advantage of that power. For my playing, it was a crutch for a loose embouchure.
This is part of what I, and I believe John, were getting at. Pages could be written about this topic alone. One person may say: “I’ve played a bunch of flutes and maker x’s model y is the loudest.” This is not any indication of the flute’s potential, and doesn’t even give any instrument a fair shake - how many hours did the person saying that put into getting the best out of that flute? A few hours, a few days, a month or two? A number of great players have said “I’ve played this flute every day for 3 (or more) years now, and I think I’m just now getting to know what it’s capable of.” If it takes a really fine player that long, how long is it going to take you or me?
If you want a flute that’s easy to play right now, that’s one choice, if you want a flute that will make you better in the long run, that’s another choice.
PPS The flute is a beast.
Aint that the truth!!! And it does make the case for having easy to play flutes, for those with are easily frustrated and/or have limited practice time.
Often, but not always. The better your technique, the less this is true.
and is it less responsive in the lower octave?
Define responsive - some people will feel a “Pratten” is marginally less “responsive” than an “R&R” but others will feel the opposite, feeling instead that the “R&R” type flute requires more lip gymnastics to bring out the best on the low end. Really depends on your perspective, and good technique, nearly nullifies all but the most subtle differences in this regard.
Are volume and richness generally a tradeoff with ease of playability, or are they completely independent of each other?
No flute playing characteristics that I can think of are completely independent of one another, they are all interdependent is some way.
Are volume and richness generally a tradeoff with ease of playability? Not in a well made flute, and not for someone who can play well. If you don’t have sufficient embouchure and breath support, then you may very well have problems with a large bore and or large hole flute. In addition, volume and richness don’t necessarily go hand in hand: “Loud” Prattens flutes are typically thought of as having a somewhat dry tone, rather than a rich tone, while the “quieter” R&R flutes are considered to have a more rich and complex tone. However, there are “loud” large hole R&R’s that have a fairly dry tone, and some maker’s “Prattens” seem not so loud, and a tone that some people would call “rich”. So you see, the generalizations that might have held up a bit of water back in the day of the original R&R’s and first Prattens, no longer help us much, because modern flutes have morphed a bit. And it still needs to be said, that all of these factors with regards to tone production and volume, have so much more to do with the player than the flute, this simply can’t be overlooked - flute is an unusual instrument in that the vast majority of the volume, tonal color, and “responsiveness” that one gets out of the instrument, comes not from instrument’s, materials, design, or craftsmanship, but rather the player’s embouchure and breath support.
In other words, should someone buying a flute for home/solo playing be looking at different flutes from someone who plays sessions or busks?
Now, finally, we have (IMO) a valid question that can be answered fairly easily - with the qualifiers below, and keeping in mind that your question is for newbies, as you put it.
If you don’t currently have a flute, and what you are looking for is a flute that is relatively easy to play, and maximum volume is not a concern, then I would say yes, you could limit your search, and frustration perhaps, by focusing of flutes that don’t have a large bore and/or large holes, as this will typically increase the amount of breath support necessary to drive the flute, and you may very well find the small/medium bore and hole flutes to be easier playing at low volume as well.
The Busker on the otherhand, should play what he already has, and work like the devil to get the most out of it! If Chris Norman were out on the street Busking with his flute, which many here would consider “relatively quiet” if they played it, I think he’d be heard well enough.
I’m sure this has been covered ad nauseum, but at least it (kind of) changes the subject.
Does it?
I don’t know if any of what I’ve written is helpful, but perhaps if there are general guidlines with regards to first time flute buying for newbies, IMO they would go something like this:
\
Buy a good quality Keyless flute.
If buying new, purchase from somone in your own country - returns overseas are a PITA.
If you have an instructor lined up, talk to them and see what they recommend. I have found a huge advantage in having essentially the same flute as my teacher (same maker, same model, different wood) - the advantage being that I have a direct comparison of tone and volume, between what I produce and what she does. I don’t have to wonder if it’s the flute, I know the difference is ME, and this frees me of the inevitable, and useless thought process of “If I had a different flute, I might be better able get the tone, volume, whatever, that I’m looking for” This is actually a rather big deal.
4)Don’t go straight for the big bore large hole “Cannon” (unless it is what your instructor recommends) - it will be harder to play well when you are starting out (and likely for years), and even if you play at sessions, you do not need a “cannon” in fact, if you have any sense, you will not want to be “Loud”, particularly if you aren’t already a good player - an “average” flute will be easier to play, and plenty loud virtially any session you go to.
5)If you follow even a couple of the tips above, and end up with a flute that is causing you problems, have a good player try it out. If the feel the flute plays “well”, then stick with it. The temptation is to consider making a change to a different flute, however every time you do this, you are setting yourself back, as you will just have to start developing the correct embouchure (for the new flute) virtually from scratch.
I’m sure I’m forgetting some important points, but that’s what rolls off the top of my head this morning.
IMMENSELY helpful, and worth the time to repeat, IMHO. In a nutshell, flute design is important, particularly for beginners, but eventually technique will trump the nuances of these differences. Right? Thanks!
Loren! Get off this list. Don’t waste any more time.
Go play your flute.
You’ll be happier doing that than if you spent more time schmoozing about flutes!
One thing I find is that as embouchure improves less and less air is
needed to drive the flute. It’s John Skelton’s metaphor–the
garden hose that sprays further when you put your finger
over part of the nozzle, thereby creating a smaller opening.
You get a lot of back pressure and a concentrated stream
of air, but you don’t use much air. I find I can play the Olwell
Pratten, say, with no more air than it takes to play a soprano
whistle. So, once you’ve got the embouchure in shape (though
this takes time) even though some flutes may be harder ‘to
fill’ than others, I don’t think this remains an issue.
As to busking, one obvious issue is that you don’t take something
out there that you can’t afford to lose or get damaged. This isn’t
what you had in mind, I know, but it’s true.
As to sessions and ensembles, I find that different flutes do
different things in different ensembles (large or small, guitars
or bagpipes) and rooms. Very much FWIW, in my hands,
anyhow the Olwell Pratten seems to do very well in groups.
I’m playing a lot with softer instruments, guitars, supporting
people improvising, and the full, rich bottom octave
lets me play behind people without drowning them out,
as I tend to do in the upper octave. But that’s not ITM.
And Brad H doubtless does far better on his Byrne Rudall
than I do on my Pratten.
Perhaps the best thing is to simply go for the flute that you like
the best. I made the fatal error of buying a good Rudall and a
good Pratten–these are investments, they appreciate in value.
I consider flutes ‘black gold.’ If you know what you’re buying
you don’t lose money (or much money) if/when you sell.
In my hands, anyhow, they have different tonal properties,
both are super in different ways, and it’s driving me a bit
bats.
In my own (controversial) opinion it can be helpful
to start on something playable and sellable until you
are up and running, which probably takes a year or more,
then maybe try different sorts of flutes and see what
they do. It’s wonderful if you can try different flutes
without buying them–in my case this wasn’t possilbe
and so I bought them. Having checked them out
I’ve been selling them off lately (recovering my
money) , and winnowing down to what I want to concentrate on.
Doc Jones is willing to let people try out flutes, in fact.
He’s a real help to this community in many ways.
You know my friend, the sad truth is, the only reason I’ve had the time and patience to sit still and type all of this, is that I suffered a bit of a neck injury during Jiu-jitsu sparring last week. Nothing really serious in the long term I don’t think, but right now turning my head enough to play the flute is rather a painful proposition. Have no fear, I’ll be sitting at the computer far less, soon enough.
Besides, banging my head against the wall here, takes my mind off the pain in my neck
You lucky dog, I slammed my finger in the door of my new truck on wednesday . Tried playing with 1, 3, & 4 on the right hand, and it just doesn’t work. THe bad thing is that this is the second finger I’ve mashed this year. Left index crushed with a poorly placed hammer blow earlier this year, and now this. Oh and typing is a booger, too.
Sorry about the neck. those kind of strains can be torture.
P. S. In case anybody is curious, yes, the driver’s door on a Nissan Frontier WILL latch with a finger in the way. Now that you know, don’t try it out to prove it to your self.
I hoped for a report from someone who has both
the Hammy and the Olwell Pratten. Did receive one privately.
FWIW, the report is that the Hammy is slightly
louder.
I responded to this yesterday, but I guess the little electrons got lost somewhere.
I think the real answer to most of your questions is, it depends on the player and on the flute. I think the only cut-and-dried answer is to the last question: if you’re going to play with others, you need a tunable flute; if you’re only going to play by yourself you don’t need a tunable flute. As Henke pointed out, the different kinds of flutes have different kinds of volume; a large-holed flute might be louder in an absolute sense, but a small-holed flute might cut through beter.
These are my experiences; not meant to be representative at all. I’ve never found that Pratten-type flutes require more air than Rudall-type flutes. I’ve found that they’re easier to play loudly – the Hammy gives more volume with less effort than the small-holed Olwell. But I find it much easier to push small-holed flutes, so I don’t think I get any more ultimate volume from large-holed flutes. I find small-holed flutes a bit more versatile – that is, easier to change the sound from pure to dirty. As for responsiveness, I suspect it’s all what you’re used to. There are passages I can play on a small-holed flute that I can’t on a large-holed flute, presumably because I’m not covering the holes properly. But that’s because I’m used to small-holed flutes; if you cut your teeth on a Pratten I’m sure you’ll find it easier to play than a Rudall.
I’d recommend you get on Mr. Olwell’s list and plan yourself a long weekend in the following year and drive up to see him. He’s only a few hours from Raleigh, and he makes great small-, medium-, and large-holed flutes, all of which you can try. Then decide which suits you.
Jim, I spent an hour with my flute teacher with my Hammy and his lined Olwell Pratten. Unlike me, he can play them I didn’t find a difference in volume between them (as player or listener), but there’s definitely a difference in character. One great thing about the Olwell is a uniformity in sound across the scale and the octaves. One great thing about the Hammy is that the different notes kind of have different characters; it’s probably truer to the historical nature of wooden flutes. The Olwell definitely sounds more like an Olwell; the Hammy has a je ne sais quoi that is unique to the Hammy.
You also received at least one report of same publicly from me Jim, but apparently you blocked it out, or rationalized it away because it was not what you were hoping to hear. Over the years, I have noticed that you have a habit of doing this Jim - you’ve made up your mind about something, and then you keep asking the question about it, until you get the answer you want to hear. Is it a surprise that you get so few responses any more?
Having played and compared examples of both flutes, on at least 3-4 different occasions, I went ahead and answered your question Jim, I just didn’t do it the way you would have liked, nor did I give you the answer you wanted to hear. Now, if you want to act like I didn’t even bother to answer your question, fine. But do us both a favor, don’t ask me these questions privately any more (as you often do) and I won’t offer public answers either, this way we can both stop wasting eachother’s time.
Thanks, Chas, for the report. One day I would really like to play a Hammy.
Sounds quite interesting.
One thought about playing alone–for me that often involves
playing with CDs and tapes of sessions, etc. So a tuning
slide can come in handy even when you’re playing ‘by yourself.’
You’re wasting your time Charlie, this is not the answer that Jim is looking for. Come back when you are prepared to state that the Hammy is louder. (Insert Eye Roll emoticon here)
Sorry if I missed your report. Things got pretty busy here yesterday.
I didn’t block out what you said or rationalize it, anymore than
I did it to Chas. Just missed it, apparently.
What I recall you saying is that the differences
tween these flutes is marginal at best. I accepted that, still do.
If you look over my posts I’ve been agreeing substantially
with a good deal of what you say, for instance, I took your
good point that I’ve reached the point of diminishing returns
about volume concerning hardware, and that the best way to
get more is either to improve my technique or amplify.
The report that the Hammy is slightly louder, if it’s accurate
(note I added FWIW, as a single report isn’t going to settle
the matter)
confirms your opinion–because the difference is slight.
If Chas is right and there isn’t even that much difference,
you’re right.
At the end of the day I’m probably not going to agree with
you about everything, but I sure hope you won’t get
personal or suggest I’ve got Alzheimers (green tea and
fish, I place my hopes in these). It’s just
a conversation about flutes.
You know, it’s a sad fact–there are things that seem self-evident
to me and other people often don’t see it that way. I can try to
persuade them but I can’t control them and I’ll just drive
myself crazy if I try.
Since I didn’t chime in on the first “loudness” thread, and haven’t put in my two cents yet…I just came back from our local session, and a new flute player has recently moved to town from Houston. You’d be amazed at the volume and rich, fat sound coming from his smaller holed antique ebonite flute. Since he’d not played an M&E, he played a bit on mine just for a minute or two, and darned if it didn’t sound remarkably similar to his flute…just as loud and rich sounding. His quote in that typical Irish reseved style was simply “there ain’t nothing wrong with that”.
If Chris Norman were out on the street Busking with his flute, which many here would consider “relatively quiet” if they played it, I think he’d be heard well enough.
. Tried playing with 1, 3, & 4 on the right hand, and it just doesn’t work. THe bad thing is that this is the second finger I’ve mashed this year. Left index crushed with a poorly placed hammer blow earlier this year, and now this. Oh and typing is a booger, too.
I didn’t find a difference in volume between them (as player or listener), but there’s definitely a difference in character. One great thing about the Olwell is a uniformity in sound across the scale and the octaves. One great thing about the Hammy is that the different notes kind of have different characters; it’s probably truer to the historical nature of wooden flutes. The Olwell definitely sounds more like an Olwell; the Hammy has a je ne sais quoi that is unique to the Hammy.