Whatever happened to all the great stuff that was at http://w3.lincolnu.edu/~focal/ ? Is the Irish Curse Generator lost forever?
djm
I don’t know. I tried to go there a while back, and it was gone. It’s a shame because, in addition to the curse generator, which was a scream, the “Focal an Lae” feature was really nice for helping learners build vocabulary.
Perhaps a search on “Irish curse generator” will turn something up.
Redwolf
IGTF is back up now, and at one point today, we had 743 people on-line!
Redwolf
If in the main C&F could be centered on Irish Traditional Music, then why not have a single thread, or whatever, centered on Irish Traditional Language?
If nothing else, perhaps such a thing could help to bring ITL to the attention of C&F members.
And, perhaps learning something of the music and learning something of the language could be a win/win combination.
I’m not against anyone trying to learn Irish. I just don’t know how many people here are into it. You would want several people conversant in the language to answer questions, and I don’t know if we have that depth of expertise here. However, that type of help is available on several other sites already if you’re interested, which was my point.
djm
OK, I gather that http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/ is the go-to place.
Yet, perhaps having a C&F thread for Irish Traditional Language could be a good thing, if only to help raise awareness of it.
@ djm
Really, all I had in mind was an informal, ITL thread, one which might well refer to other, more specialized Irish language sites.
It just seemed to be a natural adjunct, to C&F.
If nothing else, people might be interested in what all those tune names translate to (as well as how to spell and pronounce them correctly). I’m amazed at how many different spellings I see for “Sí Beag, Sí Mór,” for example (btw, “Sí Beag, Sí Mór” is correct. "Sí Bheag, Sí Mhór is NOT correct because “Sí” is masculine).
But yeah…for the most part, IGTF is the go-to place. There’s another site – daltai.com – but they tend to be less supportive of learners and more inclined to argue about everything under the sun.
Redwolf
Argue? Hmm, I wonder if…, oh, never mind. Arguing about everything under the sun could never become popular at C&F.
PS, Redwolf,
I went to the IGTF site, and went through Wombat’s Grammar Guide.
Granted, Wombat’s GG is seriously abbreviated, but in general I didn’t see anything horribly complicated about Irish grammar.
And, I see what you mean about the regional differences as being relatively minor, not a big problem.
So, the real chore looks like vocabulary, vocabulary, vocabulary…, along with some syntax adjustments, of course.
For foreign language grammars in English, I’ve had good luck with Routledge publications, so I’ll likely look there.
Thanks!
Edit: Aha! Routledge offers two Irish publications in English, both by the same author, Nancy Stenson.
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Basic Irish: A Grammar and Workbook; ISBN 978-0-415-41041-0
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Intermediate Irish: A Grammar and Workbook; ISBN 978-0-415-41042-7
BTW, by the time a student has successfully completed an intermediate level grammar, they could be ready to leave the world of English-based instruction, and go directly to instruction in the target language, in this case Irish in Irish. Add the Internet to that, and language acquisition could happen, fast!
While the grammar can be a bit challenging at first, it’s not nearly as horrific as people seem to think. The biggest hurdle, to my mind, is idiom. For example, Irish uses a funny little construction known as the “prepositional pronoun,” which we don’t have in English, where English would tend to have a dedicated verb. For example:
English: I love you
Irish: Tá grá agam duit: Is love at-me to-you
English: I love pizza
Irish: Is breá liom píotsa: Is fine with-me pizza
Keeping track of those, and particularly which preposition to use when, is the greatest challenge I’ve faced. It can make a huge difference too, because sometimes combining a certain pronoun with a certain verb can change the meaning of the verb. For example:
Bhuail mé Seán: I hit Seán
Bhuail mé le Seán: I met Seán
What seems to scare most people approaching the language is pronunciation (they see all those “odd” vowel and consonant combinations and panic), but really it’s not a huge problem. Irish is much more regular in that respect than English, and once you have the basic sounds down, it’s a non-issue.
Another thing that helps immensely is the availability of Irish-language radio and television on the Internet. I’m a real TG4 junkie…I watch at least one program a day, and often a couple, if I have the time.
Redwolf
I was toasting everyone with cries of “Cilantro!!” yesterday. 
Hey, it’s green.
True…
You’re doing a fine thing here Red..keep the faith.
Being from Dublin, Gaelic is not my first language but it does form my approach to conversation and the crack.
I have been known to use strange grammatical structures from time to time but it is something inherent in Irish people..even those who don’t know the Gaylick…
Slan,
D. 
Being a language “tourist” has its rewards. For instance, it’s interesting to see how people think, and how they see the world around themselves.
I’ve found a good grammar book to be a convenient way to do that, not enough to fully learn a language, but enough to get an understanding of it.
And, it looks as though Irish will be my next pursuit.
One fun thing about learning Irish is it gives you some insight into “Hiberno English” (for want of a better term). Many unique Irish constructions in English come directly from the Irish language (for example, if I want to say “I’ve just eaten my breakfast” I’d say “tá mé tar eis mo bhrifeasta a ithe”: “I’m after eating my breakfast”).
I initially started learning Irish because I love the Irish song tradition. It wasn’t enough for me to sing a song in translation, or to learn it phonetically…I really need to understand and feel what I’m singing on a deeper level. Even when I’m playing a tune on the harp or the whistle, if it’s a song air, I feel strongly that the words inform the tune, and thus the best way to play it well is to learn to sing it, or at least to hear it sung by someone who understands the words well enough to give it the right phrasing and interpretation. It seems to me that the culture, history, language and music of a people are deeply entwined, so learning the language, to me, is a natural part of loving the music.
Redwolf
I can relate to that, easily enough.
For me, for instance, choosing a language to study usually amounts to thinking something like, “Hmm, that’s an interesting place, populated by interesting people, and, their native language isn’t English, so, how does their language work?” Then, it’s a matter of obtaining a decent grammar in English. Then, it’s maybe a year or so of study, to work my way through that grammar, and to accumulate perhaps a few thousand words of vocabulary, after which and generally speaking, another language could typically then begin to become a working model, as within my understanding. At that time, moreover, I often find that I can “rate” translations, from “good” translations, to “bad” translations, etc., not that I could claim to be an expert, of course.
In addition, the study of another language invariably involves learning much about the native culture of that language, but that’s part of the reward!
So, yes, I can agree that much can be lost in a translation.
BTW, today I placed an order for the text I mentioned, as above, Basic Irish: A Grammar and Workbook, and should have it within a couple of weeks or so.
Ahh, the beginning of a new adventure!
In Hiberno English - a fine term by me - we never say “My”..it’s always “Me”…
A subtle distinction but an important one…in Translation.
Slan,
D. 
Let me add, that for me the limiting factor in foreign language study is usually in the costs of the texts required.
For instance, a student begins with a translating dictionary, and good ones can cost money. Unfortunately, even the better translating dictionaries usually aren’t all that good, for a number of reasons, and so once the student becomes proficient enough to work in their target language, they could then incur the cost of a better, and more expensive, perhaps much more expensive, dictionary. That’s where I usually draw the line.
As another indispensable text, a similar sequence happens with grammar books, too. A grammar book in English could be reasonably priced, but going into the finer points of the target language, not in English, can also get expensive.
For instance, in one language which I really enjoyed, I eventually got all of the major texts I could need, and by the time I was done importing an armload of such books, I had about $2,000 invested.
We’ll see how it goes with Irish. The beginner’s grammar was about $35, but then the intermediate grammar is another $37. See how it can add up?
And, BTW, these sorts of copy written materials are generally not available on the Internet. Yes, I’ve looked.
Compound that with the way that Irish changes the beginning of the word instead of English’s end of the word, or the whole word altogether, and you start to see how the available Irish-English dictionaires quickly fall flat on their faces due to lack of inclusion.
djm
The Finnish language is like that. Without a working knowledge of the grammar, a Finnish dictionary could be about useless!
Edit: And, for largely the same reasons as you mentioned, Finnish-English dictionaries can also fall flat, very flat!